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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@Rogue

Quote:
Rogue wrote:
@keisangi

Quote:
keisangi wrote:
AmigaOS need to evolve with todays standard.. and when i say "today" i'm being nice cause utf8 / large files support / modern browser / and getting an OS stable and protected from it's own tasks! is in almost every systems around since quite a while.


As I said, large file support is already in, as you would know if you had any idea what you are talking about.

You know pretty little about AmigaOS obviously if you think you can build in all-out memory protection into it - this is not possible in the current incarnation, and it will need to move to an incompatible API at one point to achieve this. That will happen, mind you, but not just now.


I know pretty little about it, too. It?s been quite a while since I read your OS4 reports in Club Amiga Magazine. Am I following the wrong course when I think that this has to do with the OS being single user versus multi-user?

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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@Rogue

"That will happen"

That's good to hear.

Vacca foeda. Sum, ergo edo

Mr Bobo Cornwater
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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@Rogue
Quote:

Rogue wrote:
@keisangi

You know pretty little about AmigaOS obviously if you think you can build in all-out memory protection into it - this is not possible in the current incarnation, and it will need to move to an incompatible API at one point to achieve this. That will happen, mind you, but not just now.


Please excuse my ignorance (I also only know little about AmigaOS internals), but to me it seems like a good thing to move to the incompatible API better sooner than later.
Why? Because there isn't much OS4 software now. When OS4 is more popular in the future (after Hyperion has hopefully won the lawsuit), a break in compatibility will be more difficult and much more software would need to be rewritten.

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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@rogue

well, maybe you're right, i'm not civilised enough to get to discuss os4 internals with you.. i don't mind.

but let me ask you that question anyway:

how do you think the lambda potential new amigaos user would react when looking at os4 more closely ?

- what ? no OS protection from it's own tasks? (any app can crash it completly)

- no ut8 ?
- you claim large file support is in, but afaik only sfs2 implemented actual support for it. maybe beta user have access to a special version of ffs2, but last time i've checked, ffs2 couldn't write files bigger than 4gb .. so what's the use if only beta tester have it ? plain users still don't.
So no, os4 still doesn't have large file support ..
and even if it did, most of the apps are outdated and doesn't support it anyway. so from practical user point of view: no large file support.

- 3d layer isn't up to date

- and most of the OS fundation are based of an outdated API and are very weak. that's one of the worst reason i can think of.

So you have our potential new AmigaOS user i was talking at the beginning.. what do you think his reaction would be ?

i can think of two or three:

he won't even bother looking again at AmigaOS for until the next big release announced with bells and whistle saying " Lots of good new stuffs, pretty much got updated ...etc.. "
So obviously you won't even hear a single word from that type of potential user, they won't even bother. it doesn't worth it, they will probably think.


another type of potential user will buy you r product because of good memories he had with Amiga, and then, realizing the state of the thing after few weeks of use, he will get frustrated and quit, doing bad publicity around him, or he will just complain like me on public forum trying to push things in the right direction.. (not that I know what's good for everyone .. i can't pretend that, but i can pretend crash and reboot aren't good for anyone .. that i can pretend it's bad for sure..)

and then you'll have the last type blind followers, you won't hear much from this type either, they'll just keep praising you as a living god.. but unfortunatly for you this type is rare ;)

that left us obviously with the type of the middle for the larger majority.. the type that will buy because of his past memories with Amiga..

do you really think everyone will wait for your good disposition or will just have the right wording to reach you ?
my guess is that some ppl will get pissed up and will probably moan , complain and rant or what ever on the public forums just the way i do.

fundations of os4 need to be improved asap, or you won't attract much ppl to this product, and the acension will be slow and painful.. if the product can survive at all .

something should be done now, that there's not much Amigan and application around .. as helge said, breaking compatibility at a later point could be more painful, if there's more apps and users ..

so when do you plan to make this OS interesting ?
if you compare with other alteranives OS amigaos isn't particulary appealing riht now .. that's a shame and a waste, considering it was so much ahead of it's time in the 1980s & 1990s era

and take note i'm not comparing to mainstream players .. just other alternatives .. such as haiku or skyos for example ..but there's more..

as i said you can ignore me saying i'm not adult enough to be worth your answers, but i think thoses questions will be ask by others anyway.. what will you find to say to them then ?


i mean, now that you recognized some of my points are valid but refusing to discuss em with me cause i'm not adult enough..
..that doesn't make the point i've made less valid, right ?

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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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Hi,

@keisangi

please go and buy Windows and leave use Amiga user here alone ...
[then you have all you need!]

Nothing you have mentoned was planed for OS4 or later.
If you WILL this you have 2 ways:

1,Buy Win

2,Buy AInc,Hyperyon,ACube and invest a couple of multi-millions $
in the development too ..

It is you free way ....

R-TEAM

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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@keisangi

Quote:
that left us obviously with the type of the middle for the larger majority.. the type that will buy because of his past memories with Amiga..


Maybe... But it all depends on price! I think most of these types of peoples would want to buy an Amiga mainly because of the games. It's the same with the C64DTV. Many bought it because... it has games, was cheap and they remembered the past.
The problem with AmigaOS4 hardware is that it is for the most peoples too expensive only for remembering the past and playing some games. But this is the biggest group of buyers!
I think the users who remember the Amiga for the Workbench are much less than the ones who remember it for the games.
When I tried EUAE on my XE, I was very disappointed because the sound was often stuttering and Winuae was much more advanced in functionality and run flawlessly.
It is strange that I can play Amiga games much better on a PC with Windows that costed 1/3 of my XE!
I think if there is a goal to get more users in the future, then OS4 should be ported to PCs. Then everyone can buy cheap computers which are fast too and they have to worry less about the supply and quality.
I understand that it's not possible at the moment and a big task. So maybe it is better to choose the Mac Mini first as the next hardware platform. Hundreds of thousand have been sold and many Mac users are positive about the Amiga, so they might buy OS4 if the price is right.
But maybe they should name it HyperionOS4 before, because the Amiga name has received a bad reputation in the last years. Unfortunately, many won't realize that Hyperion is different from Amiga Inc if they only read "AmigaOS".

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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@Helge

Quote:

a break in compatibility will be more difficult and much more software would need to be rewritten.


Not really. It could be tackled the way MacOS X runs MacOS classic apps.

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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@keisangi

Quote:

- you claim large file support is in, but afaik only sfs2 implemented actual support for it.


The dos library fully supports it. Its true that the only publically available filesystem that supports it is SFS2, yes, but note the term "publically available"? Thats right. End users can use >4Gb files on AmigaOS4, not just betatesters.

FFS2 will never support >4Gb files, but don't worry; there is a brand new filesystem in development that does. Sure, that filesystem is only available to betatesters right now, BUT as I said SFS2 is out there RIGHT NOW.

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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@keisangi

You are right. you are apparently unable to discuss in a sane manner, therefore I can only suggest you... nevermind, I am not going to stoop that low.

(edit) For the record, I always find it somewhat funny to see people say "AmigaOS needs this" and "AmigaOS needs that". FWIW, we're not stupid, regardless of what you may think. It also isn't like we do not know what AmigaOS needs. However, unlike yourself, we actually need to work on it not moan and bitch about it ad nauseam, and that is a slight bit more work than holding your breath and stomping your foot on a forum.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@Billsey

Quote:

Billsey wrote:

I know pretty little about it, too. It?s been quite a while since I read your OS4 reports in Club Amiga Magazine. Am I following the wrong course when I think that this has to do with the OS being single user versus multi-user?


It's a shame that something CAM doesn't exist anymore, really...

It doesn't have anything to do with multi-user vs. single user really. The problem is that almost everything in AmigaOS is open. Like, for example, programs receiving an IntuiMessage go and peek into the message without going through an API, and they also peek into system structures like struct Window. As long as that is so, there is little that can be done in terms of full memory protection.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@Helge

Quote:

Helge wrote:

Please excuse my ignorance (I also only know little about AmigaOS internals), but to me it seems like a good thing to move to the incompatible API better sooner than later.
Why? Because there isn't much OS4 software now. When OS4 is more popular in the future (after Hyperion has hopefully won the lawsuit), a break in compatibility will be more difficult and much more software would need to be rewritten.


As Xeron points out, there is always the possibility to go the MacOS X/Classic route.

Our plan is to move everything up one layer, i.e. make the HAL a software implementation based on a newer kernel, with the old system running as a separate task but using services from the new system.

The compatibility break is inevitable. We've seen it again and again, last time with the pager support - the current (beta) kernel supports swapping to disk. However, there are a lot of exceptions of memory that can simply not swapped (mostly because of the memory protection issues again).

As of now, there are other, more urgent things to do (Classic version for example), but once we're done with the current plans, moving ahead will include breaking compatibility, taking what we think is good and defining in AmigaOS, and leave the rest behind.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@Rogue

Thanks for the explanation and great to hear about the Classic version. I hope it is released soon. OS4 needs fresh blood quickly!

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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@xeron

Quote:
The dos library fully supports it. Its true that the only publically available filesystem that supports it is SFS2, yes, but note the term "publically available"? Thats right. End users can use >4Gb files on AmigaOS4, not just betatesters.


Well, it's actually irrelevant who supports it or not. If you have OpenGL and no driver for a GeForce 2, does that mean you don't have OpenGL support? I don't think so. Just because not all file systems support it (and let's face it, SFS2 means already half of the publicly available file systems support it) doesn't mean it is not supported.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@Rogue

Quote:
Our plan is to move everything up one layer, i.e. make the HAL a software implementation based on a newer kernel, with the old system running as a separate task but using services from the new system.

The compatibility break is inevitable. We've seen it again and again, last time with the pager support - the current (beta) kernel supports swapping to disk. However, there are a lot of exceptions of memory that can simply not swapped (mostly because of the memory protection issues again).

If this plan goes ahead, does that mean current OS4 apps will run under a sandbox with the older kernel, and that the newer OS4.x apps will have enhanced features, and maybe a better form of memory protection?

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Re: Future AmigaOS
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@jahc

Quote:

jahc wrote:

If this plan goes ahead, does that mean current OS4 apps will run under a sandbox with the older kernel, and that the newer OS4.x apps will have enhanced features, and maybe a better form of memory protection?


I wouldn't call it a sandbox, rather a virtual environment. The old system will run in its own address space as a separate task. It's not like a UAE or anything like that. It might or might not be able to become aware of the outside world, we still need to clear up the details.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: Future AmigaOS
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@Rogue

So, what you're talking about is really like running two OS's at once on the same machine, with one acting as "overseer", so to speak.

For those who are brave enough to want to know me better, visit
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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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Quote:
keisangi wrote:

@rogue

well, maybe you're right, i'm not civilised enough to get to discuss os4 internals with you.. i don't mind.

but let me ask you that question anyway:

how do you think the lambda potential new amigaos user would react when looking at os4 more closely ?

- what ? no OS protection from it's own tasks? (any app can crash it completly)

- no ut8 ?
- you claim large file support is in, but afaik only sfs2 implemented actual support for it. maybe beta user have access to a special version of ffs2, but last time i've checked, ffs2 couldn't write files bigger than 4gb .. so what's the use if only beta tester have it ? plain users still don't.
So no, os4 still doesn't have large file support ..
and even if it did, most of the apps are outdated and doesn't support it anyway. so from practical user point of view: no large file support.

- 3d layer isn't up to date

- and most of the OS fundation are based of an outdated API and are very weak. that's one of the worst reason i can think of.

Hi,

Yeesh! Where do I start?

First, R-TEAM beat me to it!

Well, you are just not a customer that is interested in AOS4.x. Go buy linux, macosx, qnix, vista, etc.


Quote:
keisangi wrote:

So you have our potential new AmigaOS user i was talking at the beginning.. what do you think his reaction would be ?

i can think of two or three:

he won't even bother looking again at AmigaOS for until the next big release announced with bells and whistle saying " Lots of good new stuffs, pretty much got updated ...etc.. "
So obviously you won't even hear a single word from that type of potential user, they won't even bother. it doesn't worth it, they will probably think.


another type of potential user will buy you r product because of good memories he had with Amiga, and then, realizing the state of the thing after few weeks of use, he will get frustrated and quit, doing bad publicity around him, or he will just complain like me on public forum trying to push things in the right direction.. (not that I know what's good for everyone .. i can't pretend that, but i can pretend crash and reboot aren't good for anyone .. that i can pretend it's bad for sure..)

and then you'll have the last type blind followers, you won't hear much from this type either, they'll just keep praising you as a living god.. but unfortunatly for you this type is rare ;)


They are, you ungrateful.... (musn't finish this sentence!)


Quote:
keisangi wrote:

that left us obviously with the type of the middle for the larger majority.. the type that will buy because of his past memories with Amiga..


Yes, and tell me what AOS4.x can't do, that the other OS's CAN do, that I actually CARE about, in fact.

Only thing is true multi-user, and it's a feature I DO NOT want, and anyone that MUST have it, go look elsewhere.... And AOS4.0 COULD have a similar version, ANYWAY, but not quite the same, really, but close enough that it wouldn't really matter to 80% of the people that HAD to have it.

Okay, unicode, but, will we die without it?


Anything else a crisis situation?

PLEASE don't waste my time with memory protection. Need it? Buy another OS. No, wait, explain what program, or type of program CAN NOT be written without having memory protection?

Can there NOT be ONE OS on the planet with NO memory protection?????

Quote:
keisangi wrote:

do you really think everyone will wait for your good disposition or will just have the right wording to reach you ?
my guess is that some ppl will get pissed up and will probably moan , complain and rant or what ever on the public forums just the way i do.


Please, please, please, PLEASE buy some other OS and find deficiencies in them and complain infinitely!!!!!!!!

Quote:
keisangi wrote:

fundations of os4 need to be improved asap, or you won't attract much ppl to this product, and the acension will be slow and painful.. if the product can survive at all .


If the coders of AOS4.x aren't trying to attract you, I think I can live with that.

Quote:
keisangi wrote:

something should be done now, that there's not much Amigan and application around .. as helge said, breaking compatibility at a later point could be more painful, if there's more apps and users ..


I not losing any sleep over it.

Quote:
keisangi wrote:

so when do you plan to make this OS interesting ?


It's AWESOME. Go use something else that suits your purposes.

Quote:
keisangi wrote:

if you compare with other alteranives OS amigaos isn't particulary appealing riht now .. that's a shame and a waste, considering it was so much ahead of it's time in the 1980s & 1990s era


You think so? You really, really think so? I think there's another OS out there which doesn't have the problems that are terrifying you here... Feel free to acquire it, whatever "it" may be.

Quote:
keisangi wrote:

and take note i'm not comparing to mainstream players .. just other alternatives .. such as haiku or skyos for example ..but there's more..


Oh good, you've managed to find OSs more (completely?) suitable to your needs. Why bother complaining that we aren't "all that"??????

Quote:
keisangi wrote:

as i said you can ignore me saying i'm not adult enough to be worth your answers, but i think thoses questions will be ask by others anyway.. what will you find to say to them then ?


I'm one of those others and have NO complaints, don't care about those things, heck, don't want some of those things, and I say "you've done better than I could have hoped, thank you, very, very, much!!!!!"

Quote:
keisangi wrote:

i mean, now that you recognized some of my points are valid but refusing to discuss em with me cause i'm not adult enough..
..that doesn't make the point i've made less valid, right ?


The ONLY couple things I have to say are NOT criticism, but merely "whens?", like for instance.....

When will 64 bit clean AOS4.xx be available?

When will multi-CPU enabled AOS4.xx be available?

What new HW are you going to release on?

BUT I know and accept that these questions can't be answered yet.... I'm not upset at them about this, but I hope all of these are very, very soon to come.



See? I can post and say alot too.

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Re: Future AmigaOS
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Rogue wrote:
Quote:
I wouldn't call it a sandbox, rather a virtual environment. The old system will run in its own address space as a separate task. It's not like a UAE or anything like that. It might or might not be able to become aware of the outside world, we still need to clear up the details.


Sounds like WoW on 64bit windows. It lets you run 32bit applications in their own environment. It makes infinite sense.

There appear to be many challenges to get the maximum benefit out of the current API (i.e. memory protection, address spaces, multi-CPU support, etc...). The time may be better spent coming up with a better API than trying to retrofit the old API and breaking applications in the process.

Sounds like a lot of work. Planning to sleep anytime soon?

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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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I hate to bemoan the issue, but let's just say and admit that, this OS isn't for everybody, and I guess that includes you, keisangi.



Hi Rogue,

Congrats, 100 posts on the BEST Amiga website!!!!!!!!


Also, to you and all of the other AOS4.x developers, a solemn "thank you".

Support Amiga Fantasy cases!!!
How to program: 1. Start with lots and lots of 0's. 10. Add 1's, liberally.
"Details for OS 5 will be made public in the fourth quarter of 2007, ..." - Bill McEwen
Whoah!!! He spoke, a bit late.
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Re: Future AmigaOS
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@Billsey

Quote:

Billsey wrote:

So, what you're talking about is really like running two OS's at once on the same machine, with one acting as "overseer", so to speak.


Basically yes. It's not actually a new concept, the Mach kernel can do this already.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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