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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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Edit:

This user has been permanently suspended, for these reasons:

- Failing to understand the phrase "It's not what you are saying, it's how you say it"

- Lying about why (s)he was moderated.

- Continously ignoring the advice given from moderators.

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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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Edit:

This user has been permanently suspended, for these reasons:

- Failing to understand the phrase "It's not what you are saying, it's how you say it"

- Lying about why (s)he was moderated.

- Continously ignoring the advice given from moderators.

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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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Edit:

This user has been permanently suspended, for these reasons:

- Failing to understand the phrase "It's not what you are saying, it's how you say it"

- Lying about why (s)he was moderated.

- Continously ignoring the advice given from moderators.


Edited by orgin on 2007/8/16 12:23:26
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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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Edit:

This user has been permanently suspended, for these reasons:

- Failing to understand the phrase "It's not what you are saying, it's how you say it"

- Lying about why (s)he was moderated.

- Continously ignoring the advice given from moderators.


Edited by orgin on 2007/8/16 12:23:04
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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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Edit:

This user has been permanently suspended, for these reasons:

- Failing to understand the phrase "It's not what you are saying, it's how you say it"

- Lying about why (s)he was moderated.

- Continously ignoring the advice given from moderators.


Edited by orgin on 2007/8/16 12:22:47
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Re: The Memory Protection Debacle
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@Atheist

as some ppl tend to think i'm not civilised, rude and all, i'll try to write this post with simple words, in civilised manner ;)

memory protection is a mechanism that strenghten the OS, giving it ability to kill buggy applications *before* they do something bad and crash down the whole OS.

it's a mechanism that monitor memory accesses and strongly forbid applications to endanger the OS by writing or trashing OS resources.
by closing or killing the programs unwilling to comply or behave as they should.

so to summarize: it's a process that monitor applications and if an application try to do something bad that could arm the OS, then the OS say "no you can't do that" and if the application insist it's being killed. and the system can continue to work as if nothing happened at all.

it means no more crashs. no more reboot. strong and stable system. and as rachy and other pointed out, if the memory protection layer is well done (the amiga way: fast, tiny and efficient) it won't slow the system down.

so applications will either need to be updated to support this new mechanism or will need to run in an isolated/quarantined memory space, to ensure they won't trash the OS.

it's no big deal. and the gain for user will be priceless.

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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@joerg

oops .. sorry
i didn't notice you said FFS.. i thought you were speaking of SFS.
my apologies. I hope SFS2 problems will get worked on.
and the new filesystem xeron was speaking about will be out soonish..the more the merier.
it will be a pleasure to remove the "no large file support on amiga" from the list.


@moderators

i'm also very surprised about the reaction of moderators so far.
i think i owe them (half) an apology too.
cause i was moderated few other times in the past on this site.
it wasn't because of grave insults or threats or other untolerable things like that, but rather because my posts didn't kind of pleased some ppl at that time it seemed to me.
but i see an improvement here, and it's nice to see.

@rogue and tetisoft and other AmigaOS devs

would it be possible to think about having a dual solution maybe ?
i'm explaining myself:
having 2 kernels, one would be the actual one where os3.x API compatibility is kept and thus making everyone wanting that hapy.
and another one, WIP kernel supporting memory protection, utf8 and all the things you said are planned for future releases? (i understand no apps would currently use it, so no apps could be launched at all)
so users would be able to choose which kernel they wish to use.
a simple matter of rebooting to enable a kernel or another.
that would also permit developer to work with it to build apps based on the new/updated API. i realize now that i'm writing that that it might not be possible afterall, cause lots of other system components would need to get udated too .. humm too bad .. well, i guess i'm back waiting for next releases then.

i hope to see good progress on AmigaOS API soon, keep up the good work. i'll be looking for it.

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Re: Future AmigaOS
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@joerg

so what ? now you say me the only filesystem that support large file on amiga works best with floppies and where designed just for floppies and hard disk support is a hack?

man i don't see the situation about the amiga improving with statements like that.. sorry to say. i don't want to mock you or anything like that of course, but i'm saying this is not looking anybetter for the amiga ..

i hope someone will design a real filesystem for use with nowdays standards.
poor amiga.. i think now it is 10 years above it's time , in contrast with when it was 10years ahead of it's time as an OS.

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Re: Future AmigaOS
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@joerg

i understand your point .. it's true.. but then if everyone wait for the other nothing will move forward.

i think programs will get updated to support large files when the OS itself (meaning the Filesystem too) will provide support for it.

waiting for software to support large files when the filesystem itself doesn't even support it isn't gonna work..

someone need to implement this into the OS & Filesystem, and only then programmers will eventually build their progs accordingly, imho.

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Re: Future AmigaOS
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@TSK

Quote:

I think some of keisangis points are still valid.


indeed they're ;)
thanks for recognizing that .. rogue himself recognized they were..

it's just ppl don't like my way of pointing where the wound is, where it hurts.. and say " this is a wound and it hurts" ..

some ppl are so happy to see os4 being developed that they want to protect it's developers from criticisms.. so anyone that say something about it is being turned into the bad guy ;)

I've just pointed where it hurts and say that particular point should get updated /corrected. it's not lies or intentional bullying or whatever.. it's true os4 will need what i spoke about.. and the sooner the better. rogue said few times already this is planned for later updates already.. i'm just eager to see thoses updates comming so i could actualy use os4.

ssolie: removed "blind followers" insult

but for the record let me say i don't use windows at all. i use linux since almost 10years now .. since i've sold my a4k ppc in fact .. because i couldn't be bothered anymore with all the crashs in particular. i've owned few amiga, my two main config were an A1200 ppc /bvision and that a4k ppc/ cybervision with UW scsi and all.. i know what i'm talking about ;)
and now i have that amigaone here.. but it's just gathering dust.. i'm waiting for something really appealing to dig it out. i don't see that coming real soon, but hey .. there's still hopes ;)
and it doesn't cost me anything too keep it .. just in case ..


Edited by ssolie on 2007/8/14 18:40:54
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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@rogue

well, maybe you're right, i'm not civilised enough to get to discuss os4 internals with you.. i don't mind.

but let me ask you that question anyway:

how do you think the lambda potential new amigaos user would react when looking at os4 more closely ?

- what ? no OS protection from it's own tasks? (any app can crash it completly)

- no ut8 ?
- you claim large file support is in, but afaik only sfs2 implemented actual support for it. maybe beta user have access to a special version of ffs2, but last time i've checked, ffs2 couldn't write files bigger than 4gb .. so what's the use if only beta tester have it ? plain users still don't.
So no, os4 still doesn't have large file support ..
and even if it did, most of the apps are outdated and doesn't support it anyway. so from practical user point of view: no large file support.

- 3d layer isn't up to date

- and most of the OS fundation are based of an outdated API and are very weak. that's one of the worst reason i can think of.

So you have our potential new AmigaOS user i was talking at the beginning.. what do you think his reaction would be ?

i can think of two or three:

he won't even bother looking again at AmigaOS for until the next big release announced with bells and whistle saying " Lots of good new stuffs, pretty much got updated ...etc.. "
So obviously you won't even hear a single word from that type of potential user, they won't even bother. it doesn't worth it, they will probably think.


another type of potential user will buy you r product because of good memories he had with Amiga, and then, realizing the state of the thing after few weeks of use, he will get frustrated and quit, doing bad publicity around him, or he will just complain like me on public forum trying to push things in the right direction.. (not that I know what's good for everyone .. i can't pretend that, but i can pretend crash and reboot aren't good for anyone .. that i can pretend it's bad for sure..)

and then you'll have the last type blind followers, you won't hear much from this type either, they'll just keep praising you as a living god.. but unfortunatly for you this type is rare ;)

that left us obviously with the type of the middle for the larger majority.. the type that will buy because of his past memories with Amiga..

do you really think everyone will wait for your good disposition or will just have the right wording to reach you ?
my guess is that some ppl will get pissed up and will probably moan , complain and rant or what ever on the public forums just the way i do.

fundations of os4 need to be improved asap, or you won't attract much ppl to this product, and the acension will be slow and painful.. if the product can survive at all .

something should be done now, that there's not much Amigan and application around .. as helge said, breaking compatibility at a later point could be more painful, if there's more apps and users ..

so when do you plan to make this OS interesting ?
if you compare with other alteranives OS amigaos isn't particulary appealing riht now .. that's a shame and a waste, considering it was so much ahead of it's time in the 1980s & 1990s era

and take note i'm not comparing to mainstream players .. just other alternatives .. such as haiku or skyos for example ..but there's more..

as i said you can ignore me saying i'm not adult enough to be worth your answers, but i think thoses questions will be ask by others anyway.. what will you find to say to them then ?


i mean, now that you recognized some of my points are valid but refusing to discuss em with me cause i'm not adult enough..
..that doesn't make the point i've made less valid, right ?

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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@ssolie

not quite..
you might think i give to much credit to myself for saying this but, i find convenient for the official image of the OS and allowed opinions that thoses things i was saying were locked.. This thread was locked when the disscusion became difficult to answer for tetisoft or other offical developpers..

some users around even started to agree with some parts of my statments about problems AmigaOS and clones systems are facing for stubbornly trying to keep compatibillity with an api from past era (1993).

AmigaOS need to evolve with todays standard.. and when i say "today" i'm being nice cause utf8 / large files support / modern browser / and getting an OS stable and protected from it's own tasks! is in almost every systems around since quite a while.

only AmigaOS is left in the cold.. without any of thoses features.. making it looking an extremely weak alternative to any other os.

and when i started to get finally some bits of answer like:
- it will take a while to implement thoses
- or: it may not be possible to implement thoses at all ?
- or: if thoses features would be there it wouldn't be AmigaOS anymore ?

the thread was locked .. how convenient..

I'm willing to start a new thread about this if necessary.
but i think anyway AmigaOS will need to provide an answer to thoses problem.. and the sooner the better.. imho

but then i might be deleted or ignored again..
but i don't mind .. thoses problems are big enough to show themselves to anyone.. thoses questions will be asked again by others .. they simply cannot be ignored.

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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@moderators

while i'm at it,

what's with obession of avoid off topic in forums ?
it's a public forum right ? let the public decide for themselves what they want to disccuss where they want to diiscuss..
everyone is a grown person..
noone's stopped to start a new thread if needed..
if a particular topic go way too much off topic i mean..

is it moderator like it when it's all keep in tidy order and all so they can't stand or tolerate off topic ?
this is part of the "military feeling one get around amiga forum i was talkin about earlier..

is it so bad to be off topic ? is it anarchy you fear ? ;)
public forums always have been a maelstrom a melting pot of random thoughts an ideas.. off topic is good too..

i personaly think forums shouldn't be moderated at all unless someone post spam, very strong insults and threats, link to pornography with childrens or any other bad things completly unrelated to the very purpose of the forum in question.

it's unfair someone with moderation attributes can popup every once and then and tell ppl what they should speak about, how and when and if otherwise fear being removed , locked or deleted..

yes .. moderator shouldn't use their power at all, unless such accidents happens.. what they're doing is playing trigger happy robocop.. it's an abuse of power..

something went very bad around amiga ..

and this site looks "tolerant" compared to amigaworld.net lol

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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@orgin

ok, i must say then:

i think the reaction i obtained regarding my intentionaly provocative post is right. This particular time ..

as if it was just to prove me wrong, like if this site wasn't heavily moderated and all..

i must say i'm quite surprised i haven't been deleted, my post erased and removed privilege to post this time.

cause last time on the thread "when?" in "too hot to handle" forum has been treated this way. for a simple word..

i said amigans are in the same old sh*t situation and solie locked the thread... it wasn't fair. it was a good example as what happen in general around amiga sites..

so even if my particular post in this thread haven't removed or locked, in the other thread it was.

that can't be right. and while i agree with the two sentence you adviced my to take to my heart and remember.. i think heavily moderating ppl and prevent them to speak freely will inevitably lead to burst of anger. such as the situation around amiga..
it's bad and lead to frustration and possibly to anger.

instead of shutting ppl's mouth by force, and allowing only official opinion and thoughts to be discussed a real solution concerning the situation should be searched. even through hot discussion. a solution to turn this os in something usable on buyable hardware. there's no probem without solution..

it's the same as in old days ppl said pci buses cannot be used on amiga, it's not technicaly feasible, and now look today there's lots of pci solutions for amiga..

it's clear there's a solution regarding stability of amigos.
it's clear there's a solution reagrding utf8 support on amigaos, and same goes for browsers, large file support, and all the rest. saying it can't be is simply wrong.

take morphos for exemple, marcik created alone an upto date browser.. and if i'm not mistaken, it's among his first projects .. cause i've never heard of anything else he might have done. so he's not an old amiga guru using black magic to
do what he's doing.. so solution for the of the problems can be found too.

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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@Outcast

kind of .. the Amiga terribly deceived me ..
it can't be used for nothing in a trusty way..
you're never sure when it gonna let you down,
crashing on you (loosing all the work done so far)
or simply refusing to boot anymore..

there was a time it was in advance compared to other machines around ..
but this is not the case anymore since 1993

i'm not saying it need to revolutionalize or take over the computer market, this won't happen.. but it could at least evolve enough to offer a certain degree of quality were customer don't get the impression the've been screwed ..

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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@keisangi

i think amiga users are being made fool year after year,
being promised "bright time just around the corner" every now and then..

there's no new hardware, and the old one, they have back from 199x is
horribliy expensive an outdated (faulty) hardware.
they are being censored, modded and made fool on major amiga sites.
the amigaOS is an old cow it's API haven't evolved much since 1993.
it doesn't support modern standards, like utf8 or any form of stability mechanism such as memory protection for exemple.
it doesn't support large files (over 4gb). it doesn't burn DVD correctly,
lots documents cannot be viewed or edited on Amiga..

the system can be hard crashed by potentialy any task/apps
it doesn't have a browser supporting nowdays standards
98% of it's application base is completly outdated since late nineties

the uptime of the system of all amigaOS and clones doesn't exceed 3 day in average (and I'm being nice here)

and users are being deceived they're told all their problems is either because they didn't configure their system correctly or
they have bad motherboard battery / bad memory/ heat problem / quartz timing problems / cpu voltage configuration problems or whatever.

most modderators of all major amiga site are inspired by nazi practices:
censoring/ deleting / and only allowing the "official" opinion to be said or discussed. nothing else is usualy tolerated. (this really can't be right)

well, that's my opinion.. amiga has become the 3rd world of computing where the only "fun" stuff is to consider all this isn't evolving much through the years.


now let's see if there's censorship or not here ;)

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Re: ACK proven untrustworthy
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@Ferry

Quote:
a cloud of inexistent censorship.


inexistent ? excuse me ?!

well.. since i'm bored, i'll loose a bit of my time to prove you otherwise:
i will post a new message in this thread just after this one, expressing my opinion. since everyone is entitled to it's own opinion, being deleted or edited, or anything that would modify the next post should be considered as censorship right ?

let's try.. look at the mext post i'm doing now

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Re: ... when ?
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@TetiSoft


somehow i get the feeling that trying to express myself the nice way doesn't come the fruition..

better be back the provocative way..

so, basicaly you're saying :
memory protection, multiuser,security,unicode and a stable system isn't realistic on amigaos, and my alternative are either:

- to try to implement all the missing stuff myself (i'm basicaly a user of the system .. maybe a potential client)
- or to simply give up on amiga and start using something else cause it's not gonna happen on amigaos..
otherwise it wouldn't be amigaos anymore..

well, the future looks bright on this platform it seems ;)

maybe i should follow your advice.. after all it look wise.
why bother .. no unicode? no browser, no MP, not stable, no security, only outdated softwares ...

sure, amiga remembers me when computing was "fun"
in fact, the fun is probably for the ones watching you using this old gimp..

well have a good day, i come back later to see if thing got a bit better, or if you're all still in the same old sh*t..
man that doesn't look great on your side you sure you don't want to follow your own advice too and giveup amiga ?
cause that looks really painful ;)

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Re: ... when ?
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@Tetisoft

i see users getting happy about being able to run finalwriter since last OS4 update.. i understand that.
but that's not the point.
my point was, if backward compatibility was achieved through sandboxes , emulation or virtualization,
compatibility would 99% ..well see uae, for example..
a linux machine running uae is having better backward compatibility than os4.

and uae is far from being the only solution.
the original morphos idea for exemple was quite interesting, except that in the process qbox felt into oblivion and abox is the only thing users gets to use..
the concept was interesting, but abox should have become like "classic" on macintosh.. a sandbox you run only when you want to run old software. most of the time native osx is used.

i'm not saying "classic" on mac is perfect.. for instance, i would have liked to see it seemlessly embeded into native osx windows.. not starting the whole macos9 desktop inside macosx. but well i think that approach of sandbox or emulation etc is better.

look at what mac gained .. better stability, less virus, security .. this could be done on amiga too.. the amiga way..

so to come back with answering to your reply, with a sandbox approach users could run 99% of the old sofware and would be even more happy.

@LyleHaze

yes i was thinking someone would appear and tell me that at somepoint.
tell me that my hardware is wrong or my settings or my installation.. cause on that someone's amigaone everything runs rock stable .. this is simply not true.

please look at the reply of developers involved, like rogue, tetisoft, cobra etc.. they don't deny what i'm saying. they say they lack resources and time to improve things.
and they seems to say things will get improved in later release, little by little as time and resources permit.

i have a perfectly functional amigaone (if there's such a thing ;) and my os4 install is just fine.. i know what i'm talking about.. i'm specifying my tone is not agressive to avoid misunderstanding. i say this slowly in a friendly way:
i think it's time to open your eyes about amigaos api.

edit:
i'm saying this about my tone/mood/ the way i'm exppressing myself, cause ppl tend to get confused and think i'm angry or frustrated about the current situation and i'm shouting at them ..
the only part being accurate is: i like to be a bit provocative, i often get better reactions.
but about amiga in fact i'm perfectly detached,
i use linux for everything.. i just happen to have bought that amigaone .. but it's gathering dust atm. since i can't use it for most of my needs:
- browse web
- developing (java)
- no japanese support (i live in japan)

other parts are ok, like watching movies with mplayer or dvplayer, but i can do that on linux, i won't poweron my amigaone just to watch a movie..
irc support improved quite a lot too thanks to jahc..

well i'm waiting for new sdk or some real motivating stuffs to comes out to give a new test run..

so it's gathering dust until it catch my interest again..
that explain why i'm not shouting or being aggressive..
it's a misunderstanding .. or my post lacks smileys maybe ? ;)


Edited by keisangi on 2007/7/27 14:20:55
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Re: ... when ?
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ok i've read the other comments..

i apologize if i sounded rude or agressive.
what i wanted was ppl to realize os3.x isn't gonna revolutionize the world , it isn't the st graal.. it was very good at a certain time, at a certain point,
but now it need to keep going and evolve to kick asses again ..

i was under the impression many of you were standing from that point of view where os3.x was the greatest mankind achievment and should be set in stone as it is..

what i wanted was a discussion about the future things, about the vision for next steps ..

and indeed rogue said so himself and it was great to hear ..
i hope it won't take another 10years..

cause ibrowse and ami-tradecenter, amirc and few other good apps we had in the good old days simply don't cut it anymore..
(i mean they're not worth designing the entire system around them.
amigaos need to establish itself on nice bases, then apps will be redesigned .. this should go this way .. apps keeping up with the system and not this opposite as it is now, the system trying to keep up teared between trying to support today standard and old apps based on an even older api.)

now, i agree i'm noone, but from my point of view, the only things in amiga world good enough to keep is the look and feel and few other concept from user point of view..

like clear system hierarchy (system arborescence)
like user can customize mostly everything and feel he is the owner of the machine and not the opposite as with other systems around
like compact and fast and responsive system, yet beautiful and efficient ..
well all in all i think that summarize what i like with amiga ..

now what i dislike is :
prone to crash
not up to todays important standards (not every one of them, just the very imortant ones)
and maybe .. it's not opensource .. cause if hyperion fall amiga will fall in oblivion again for xxx years if not forever..
also , on a more personal note, i started programing in java, and feel i'm getting good at it gradualy, too bad i can't do that on amiga either..but well that's again another story..

i think for present time the OS itself need to stand on a stronger bases .. i mean rock stability.

thanks for listening.
and again, sorry about having expressed my feeling with a tad of agressiveness in earlier posts.

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