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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
Not too shy to talk
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@HansQuote:
Hans wrote:@Maijestro
Following up on this, the problem is that the emulated hardware is an SM501, which is limited to 16-bit colour output. We're lucky that the SM502 driver can handle the SM501, or it wouldn't work at all. We could get 32-bit if the SM502 were emulated instead.


This is of course very interesting and I was wondering why everyone talks about "sm502" but qemu uses the line "sm501". Since this driver already works, maybe we could add the missing part of the 32 bit output. sm501/2 should be very similar and the adjustments would certainly be done with little effort. Is there any documentation for this chipset?

You can find the written driver under:
"Qemu/hw/display/sm501.c"
Should you want to have a look at it.

Quote:
there any settings that you guys use for better performance? Or have things improved in the latest betas? I'm using the latest stable release (8.0.0.0).


Normally, Qemu 8 Final should work very well. Of course, the decisive factor is your hardware, the faster the better.

I'm currently using a Qemu 8.0 custom build where a ppc-hardfloat-fpu patch is included which makes the FPU emulation even faster. I could provide the build with the patches, but it has to be compiled by yourself.

Zoltan BALATON has also submitted a new "bitops" patch that will increase the FPU emulation, with luck this change will be available in Qemu 8.1.

On which hardware do you use Qemu?

I don't even dare to ask since you are developing under AmigaOs4.1, you have set up the installation under SFS?

Maybe you could also post your startup line of Qemu just so we can match it. Probably it is due to your hardware being a bit too weak.

@white is running Qemu on a Ryzen 5800x
@smarkusg uses a MacMini M1 for it

My hardware is below in the signature

lg Rene


Edited by Maijestro on 2023/5/23 10:23:37
Edited by Maijestro on 2023/5/23 11:24:52
MacStudio ARM M1 Max Qemu/AmigaOs4.1FE/Pegasos2
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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
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@Hans

Maybe because he is running at a smaller screen resolution of 1280x720?

A quarter screen will then result in only 640x360.

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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
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@Hans

Quote:
Following up on this, the problem is that the emulated hardware is an SM501, which is limited to 16-bit colour output. We're lucky that the SM502 driver can handle the SM501, or it wouldn't work at all. We could get 32-bit if the SM502 were emulated instead.

The SM502 driver under AmigaOS4.1 is limited to 16-bit since its 32-bit mode AFAIK isn't support by graphics.library.
The chip uses 4 bytes, 3 bytes for RGB, and the last byte isn't used at all.
From my tests, AOS4.1 support 24-bit modes (3 bytes) or 32-bit modes (4 bytes with alpha) but not 32-bit modes without alpha.
The result is that trasparency doesn't work.

Max Tretene, ACube Systems Srl, Soft3
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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
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@Majestro

Quote:
Zoltan BALATON has also submitted a new "bitops" patch that will increase the FPU emulation, with luck this change will be available in Qemu 8.1.

Good to hear.

Quote:
On which hardware do you use Qemu?

My laptop isn't the newest, bit it is a Core i7 running at 2.6 GHz.

Quote:
I don't even dare to ask since you are developing under AmigaOs4.1, you have set up the installation under SFS?

I set up an SFS2 partition for the OS.

Quote:
Maybe you could also post your startup line of Qemu just so we can match it. Probably it is due to your hardware being a bit too weak.

qemu-system-ppc -M pegasos2 -cpu 7447 -bios pegasos2.rom -vga none -device sm501 -drive media=disk,file=./hd.img,format=raw -device rtl8139,netdev=net0 -netdev user,id=net0 -rtc base=localtime -serial stdio


@geennaam
Quote:
Maybe because he is running at a smaller screen resolution of 1280x720?

So am I.


@m3x
I wasn't aware of that. So the SM502's blitter won't copy or use the alpha channel? That's a weird thing to do.

Hans

http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - more of my work
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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
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@Hans

Quote:
I wasn't aware of that. So the SM502's blitter won't copy or use the alpha channel? That's a weird thing to do.

The chip uses a different 16-bit layer for alpha. Maybe these is a way to implemet some sort of alpha support compatible with graphic.library...

Anyway, I've a new driver version which, on real hardware (not emulated) greatly improve CPU and DMA trasfer speed.

Max Tretene, ACube Systems Srl, Soft3
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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
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@m3x
Quote:
Anyway, I've a new driver version which, on real hardware (not emulated) greatly improve CPU and DMA trasfer speed


That's great that you make it better and better. Do you plan to have that available somewhere?

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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
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@walkero

There is a good chance that it will be available on OS4Depot and/or on ACube web site, after finishing some other improvements.

Max Tretene, ACube Systems Srl, Soft3
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Re: Was ist heute der schnellstmögliche x64-Emulationsweg von OS4?
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@m3xQuote:
m3x wrote:@Hans

Quote:
I wasn't aware of that. So the SM502's blitter won't copy or use the alpha channel? That's a weird thing to do.

The chip uses a different 16-bit layer for alpha. Maybe these is a way to implemet some sort of alpha support compatible with graphic.library...

Anyway, I've a new driver version which, on real hardware (not emulated) greatly improve CPU and DMA trasfer speed.


Thanks for the valuable information, that explains a lot. Under the Qemu Pegasos 2 emulation we also tested MorphOs with the sm501 driver and there were 24 bit screens available, apparently this driver is supported a bit better there.

It confirms that the emulation of the sm501/2 works correctly and the limitations come from the guest system, in our case from the Graphic.library used by AmigaOs 4.1 which does not fully support this driver.

Your updated sm502 driver could also improve the AmigaOs4.1 Pegasos 2 emulation under certain circumstances.

MacStudio ARM M1 Max Qemu/AmigaOs4.1FE/Pegasos2
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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
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@walkero
>I will continue searching for a solution. I am glad that emulated OS4 environments are getting better and better.

If you are still having stability problems with your network connection, you may want to try one more thing.
You may be running Amiga OS 4.1 (2008). There is a rt8139 network card driver on the board.

Now ATTENTION - the driver works only with static IP address setting!!!

You must change the IP settings from dhcpd to a static address before swapping.
Check on the current driver the changes you have made and backup the old rtl8139 driver.

Here is an overview if you have not changed the address in the boot options QEMU- > https://wiki.qemu.org/Documentation/Networking#User_Networking_(SLIRP)

ip: 10.0.2.15
netmask: 255.255.255.0
gateway: 10.0.2.2
dns: 10.0.2.3 or any other you prefer (local ip-hole,open dns,google etc)

If everything works correctly - now replace the driver and do a hard reset of the Amiga.
The driver is stable, but this is one of the last things you should do if you have problems with the stability of the network connection.

You may also change the network card settings in AOS itself by changing environment variables.

example

setenv save rtl8139.device/unit0 "VenderID=0x10EC DeviceID=0x8139 10Base-TX FullHalf NOFLOWCONTROL"

or

setenv save rtl8139.device/unit0 "VenderID=0x10EC DeviceID=0x8139 100Base-TX FullDuplex FLOWCONTROL"

...


If it helped or not let me know.

Greetings

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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
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@m3x

Could be great if you could upload it in next 2 weeks.
Real hardware, and also emulated one, should got a nice boost from your improvements.

..Any possibility to release it as opensource? Sadly Amiga market lacks about this best practice.

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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
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@HansQuote:
Hans wrote:@Majestro


My laptop isn't the newest, bit it is a Core i7 running at 2.6 GHz.


Not the latest hardware, but it should still be at least about as fast as a Pegasos.


Quote:

qemu-system-ppc -M pegasos2 -cpu 7447 -bios pegasos2.rom -vga none -device sm501 -drive media=disk,file=./hd.img,format=raw -device rtl8139,netdev=net0 -netdev user,id=net0 -rtc base=localtime -serial stdio


Under which system are you using Qemu since you have no window output assigned. Qemu supports:

-display sdl
-display gtk
-display cocoa (only available on MacOs)

You can also allocate more memory with:

-m 1024

The rest looks ok for now, as an example I use this start line:

-M pegasos2 -cpu 7457 -accel tcg -bios /Volumes/BackUP/PegasosQemuDatein/pegasos2.rom -vga none -device sm501 -drive if=none,id=cd -m 1024 -device ide-cd,drive=cd,bus=ide.1 -drive if=none,id=hd,file=/Users/reneengel/hd2SFS.img,format=raw -device ide-hd,drive=hd,bus=ide.0 -device rtl8139,netdev=network01 -netdev user,id=network01 -rtc base=localtime -display cocoa -serial stdio

It won't reach the nivou of your AmigaOne x5000, but the speed should still be noticeably better compared to WinUae and AmigaOs4.1 Classic under your hardware.

MacStudio ARM M1 Max Qemu/AmigaOs4.1FE/Pegasos2
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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
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@smarkusg
Thank you so much for your comments. I will test them and will let you know.

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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
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@Maijestro

Quote:
Thanks for the valuable information, that explains a lot. Under the Qemu Pegasos 2 emulation we also tested MorphOs with the sm501 driver and there were 24 bit screens available, apparently this driver is supported a bit better there.

Using a basic 32-bit screen isn't an issue. The problem is that hardware accelerated compositing cannot be implemented without large workarounds (e.g., copying the alpha channel to a separate alpha map). It should work okay without compositing effects, though.

Quote:

Under which system are you using Qemu since you have no window output assigned. Qemu supports:

-display sdl
-display gtk
-display cocoa (only available on MacOs)

It defaults to GTK. However, switching to SDL does nothing performance wise. Everything is still sluggish compared to what I'm used to. This includes loading the kickstart modules, booting, loading programs (especially anything using Qt), etc.

Quote:
You can also allocate more memory with:

-m 1024

Thanks.

Are there any easy CPU benchmarks that could be used to compare with real hardware? I'd be interested in how raw CPU performance compares to the Pegasos II (amongst others).

Hans

http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - more of my work
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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
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@Hans

You could try using this libshine encoder for testing
https://github.com/toots/shine
The author of the Qmiga project suggested in a corenspondation , that you can just use this encoder to check the raw CPU speed .

If you don't want to compile it a couple of posts above is ffmpeg with this encoder.
Here you would have to thank MickJT in general . Mostly he posts a detailed description with armpits for his compilations . Bravo and thanks !!!

ffmpeg -i <input file> -c:a libshine <output file>.

Regarding your emulation hardware. I also have a laptop not new on x86. The emulation on the Appple M1 is much faster.
It no longer compares the comfort of the work. Everyone knows the differences between ARM and x86 - silence , no heat, energy saving etc.
x86 has its advantages and the use of ARM has its advantages. I personally am waiting for Linux kernel development on Apple Mx and a well polished distribution to fully migrate to ARM.

As for emulation and Amiga itself.
I am not an expert on the subject but from what I understand a single core is used. In this case I on my Apple M1 and @Maijestro's MacStudio M1 the emulation speed will be the same.
His hardware is faster overall but emulation will not take advantage of that.

If I write silly things please correct me

Greetings

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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
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Question: does QEmu exists ont Power architecture?

Would QEmu on a Talos II system ( https://www.raptorcs.com/ ), for example, be really fast since PowerPC architecture derivates from Power arch ?

--
AmigaONE X1000 and Radeon RX 560
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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
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@HansQuote:
Hans wrote:@Maijestro

Are there any easy CPU benchmarks that could be used to compare with real hardware? I'd be interested in how raw CPU performance compares to the Pegasos II (amongst others).

Hans


You could use this bench it contains several tools that directly access the cpu under the emulation and real hardware.

WhetDhryStone

Otherwise, perhaps this tool would be interesting and there are already some entries on Os4Depot of it.

sortbench

As @smarkusg mentioned, it currently runs really well on Mac with M1 chipset, apparently the ARM cpu is perfectly suited to handle the emulation. I have made a short video from the complete kernel boot process to the AmigaOs4.1 workbench.





And the Sortbench via SysMon, since it probably also directly accesses the CPU.

Resized Image

I would be interested in your benchmarks that you perform directly under the emulation to be able to determine the percentage difference between the CPUs.

I don't want to offend anyone here it's mainly about AmigaOs4.1 and not about the emulation, if you feel bothered by me just let me know and I'll stop.

AmigaOs4.1 gives me a lot of pleasure and what I tried to convey is that it can work well under certain circumstances and with the right hardware (even if limited).

Greetings


Edited by Maijestro on 2023/5/24 10:45:27
MacStudio ARM M1 Max Qemu/AmigaOs4.1FE/Pegasos2
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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
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@Maijestro

I guess the JIT compiler is taking advantage of BI endian instruction set, pretty impressive, but not unexpected, considering the insane benchmarks seen on emu68k / r-pi’s

Native M1/M2 support be better, but its going to be lot of more work. anyhow think it’s better if focus on SMP, and ignore all the CPU options for now.

(NutsAboutAmiga)

Basilisk II for AmigaOS4
AmigaInputAnywhere
Excalibur
and other tools and apps.
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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
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@K-L
Quote:
Question: does QEmu exists ont Power architecture?

Would QEmu on a Talos II system ( https://www.raptorcs.com/ ), for example, be really fast since PowerPC architecture derivates from Power arch ?

It should. Search for "KVM" on this page, and you'll see that it's been used in KVM mode on a T2080.

Hans

http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - more of my work
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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
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@Hans
Quote:

It should. Search for "KVM" on this page, and you'll see that it's been used in KVM mode on a T2080.


For me it looks like a bit of surprise that there wasn't anyone who tried to use QEMU with KVM on something like PowerMac G5, just to see if it indeed works. Because if KVM works already for peg2 emulation, then you may have cheap "kind of x5000 just without gfx normal card" for 100-200$.

Maybe it still has some issue with KVM and os4 emulation ? Or just no one tried ?

Join us to improve dopus5!
AmigaOS4 on youtube
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Re: What the fastest possible x64 emulation way of OS4 today ?
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@Hans

As far as I understand, the KVM based virtual machine uses the CPU directly. This means that the kernel must be able to handle the specific CPU of the host. And I doubt that ExecSG "speaks" e6500, PPC970 or POWER9 yet.

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