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Re: Introducing the Rear Window blog
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@walkero

Quote:
But, this is the best approach for developers and people who want to dive deeper in the OS. For plain users, and we have observed that happening, the whole situation seems frustrating and they leave the community. There is a need to keep a healthy and productive environment for people to feel that things are moving forward. I just hope that the number of people who would care about the survival and expandability of the platform will increase every year.


This brings up a good question: what could be done to keep users engaged?

Obviously, more regular OS updates and news would help. But, that's in Hyperion Entertainment's hands.

I think that more end-user software would help too. Something more than game ports (which are welcome, but not enough to keep things interesting).

Hans

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Re: How to use clib4 (natively)?
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@flash
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..Waiting for new SDK release, tnx Walkero!

The SDK addon is out now. See this thread

Hans

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Re: How to use clib4 (natively)?
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@walkero

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Our goal for clib4 is not to bring confusion to the developers, but provide a better option and free them from any barriers and blocks. Instead of bitching about having to set a gcc argument for a different libc, we all should be grateful that a handful of people are doing what is needed for the development environments for our platform. They develop, they update, they test, and they benchmark as much as possible.

Of course, and I'm glad that you guys have stepped up and made something happen. I'm looking forward to try your new SDK addon next week.

Having to set a gcc argument to use clib2/clib4 is the least of the problems caused by multiple C runtimes. *.so libraries compiled with different runtimes are incompatible, which creates a mess in SOBJS:.** Even *.library files can have potential compatibility issues. This mess has been with us for over a decade.

I haven't tried clib4 yet, but from the sounds of things I think we could make it the official C runtime for AmigaOS 4, and retire the rest.***

Hans


** I'm assuming that someone has already made sure that newlib compiled code doesn't load clib2/clib4 *.so files. If not, then the situation with *.sos isn't messy, it's a freaking bomb!
*** Sadly, that decision isn't up to me.

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Re: How to use clib4 (natively)?
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@flash

@NinjaCyborg

Quote:
This thread is a great example of the barriers to entry for Amiga development.

Exactly. Lowering the barriers to entry is one of the reasons that I created the Kea Campus Amiga Corner.

It's great to see AmigaLabs working on improving things too. Their work is going to make a huge difference

@flash
Quote:
Opensource OS4 newlib could be a solution, at least clib4 could benefit from some OS4 specific code and resolve I/O speed issues and maybe other tips too.

Right now I think that clib4 could be the solution... provided that anyone can install it in their SDK and get going.

If it's as good as I've been told it is, then I see no need to create an open-source newlib port from scratch. The biggest challenge would be to make it a compatible replacement for the existing one (so that we don't end up with 4 incompatible C runtimes). If clib4 does everything we need, then why bother?

Hans

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Re: How to use clib4 (natively)?
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@kas1e

Quote:
George is working on a native add-on for the SDK that will include clib4 and other components, so it can be used if needed. It should be released soon for those who require it.

Yes, he told me about that. It sounds promising.

Quote:
While I'm not advocating for anything specific, in my opinion, building modern projects on OS4 with an "out-of-the-box in minutes" experience, like on major platforms, is not feasible and likely never will be.

Going from building out-of-the-box in minutes, to having to mess around for 1.5 days to get it to build only to discover that the port is half done and broken all over the place is a HUGE barrier to entry. Even I'm considering walking away...

I don't expect everything to "just work." However, there's a huge spectrum between putting up with the crap, and keeping everything on-par with Windows, Linux, MacOS X, etc. We can do a lot better...

Clearly work is being done. Elfpipe's CMake is getting there (as in I can build some stuff natively with it). It just needs some bug reports and fixes.

Hans

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Re: need clarify about libdl and all dlopen/dlclose calls
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@smarkusg

Quote:
You don't need a static libdl.a to load an additional library.
The program can be compiled completely statically but by dlopen through libdl.so an additional .so library for your needs.
I'm not quite sure if that's what you meant in what you wrote.

I want to statically link everything, but still be able to use dlopen(), etc.

To use libdl.so you need to dynamically link everything, which means that your program becomes dependent on a whole bunch of *.so's which the user must install. I do NOT want that.

Removing libdl.a was a mistake.

Hans

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Re: How to use clib4 (natively)?
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@kas1e

I'm trying to build stuff natively on AmigaOS 4 itself.

Sure, I could use George's docker images (which I featured in videos on how to set up a cross-compiler). However, if we keep doing things half-assed then we're going to both lose the ability to build most stuff natively, AND getting newcomers involved in OS4 development will become impossible.

I've just spent over a day trying to get an OS4 port to build. That same code builds out-of-the-box in minutes on all major platforms.

Hans

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Re: need clarify about libdl and all dlopen/dlclose calls
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@broadblues

Quote:
There is no libdl.a because under AmigaOS you cannot use the libdl functions if you are not using dynamic linking.

This needs to change, because there are situations where you might want to use libdl to load plugins/modules, but still want to statically link your program.

I've just encountered this now with code that built okay, but is asking for libatomic.so. I wanted everything to be statically linked, but one of the dependencies needs libdl.

EDIT: And the libdl.a on os4depot causes missing IElf symbol errors. Non-functional...

Hans


Edited by Hans on 2025/6/20 7:04:42
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Re: How to use clib4 (natively)?
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@kas1e

Thanks. Is there a readily downloadable updated adtools? I'm working on beginner instructions, and "you need to compile your own native adtools" is NOT beginner friendly.

If not, then clib4 still isn't ready for general use. Ideally it would be in the next SDK... as the only C runtime library. Having multiple runtime libraries is messy.

Hans

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How to use clib4 (natively)?
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I decided to try out clib4. I've downloaded and installed it. Now how do I actually use it.

The compiler complains that -mcrt=clib4 is an invalid C runtime library.

I haven't found the documentation needed to make it work.

Hans

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Re: Introducing the Rear Window blog
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@trixie

Quote:
Well, because it's not just an Amiga blog. Ko-fi is a system for creators that lets you - apart from presenting content - build a network of supporters. It makes it easy to inform them about what you have done/written, and allows them to support your efforts financially, even on a regular basis via custom-defined support tiers. As payments are involved, the technology needs to be up-to-date and secure. I couldn't possibly achieve all that with my blogsite tweaked and scaled down for Amiga compatibility.

Setting up your own ko-fi/patreon alternative is very doable on Wordpress, although I don't know how easy it is to make the theme Amiga compatible.

I haven't bothered trying to make my website 100% Amiga compatible either, because it's too much work to do that, and still have it work well on mobile and everything else.

@all
Consider this extra motivation to get an updated webkit running on OS4...

Hans

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Re: better file sharing between os4 on qemu and windows, how ?
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@balaton

No, I haven't tried to get the beta driver that's locked inside a German Amiga forum.

I have very limited time to play with this stuff, and the emulated USB flash drive works well enough, for now.

Hans

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Re: Trying to get a Radeon RX 460 working in an AmigaOne XE
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@smarkusg

Quote:
these drivers have not been officially released.

That's very disappointing.

Hans

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Re: better file sharing between os4 on qemu and windows, how ?
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@kas1e
Quote:
Client can be not that hard to do , but question is if there any advantage in compare with just ftp or samba then ? As 9p is network based protocol, mean same working network, same sharing as we already can do with samba ? Or there is advantage of usage p9 instead ?

I don't see any advantage of P9 vs FTP or SMB. And yes, we need a reliable virtual network connection.

For now I'm using the emulated USB flash, because the networking just isn't reliable. It's especially annoying for me, because I wrote ZitaFTP server for transfers to/from Amiga machines. At least it works well with real hardware...

Hans

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Re: Trying to get a Radeon RX 460 working in an AmigaOne XE
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@smarkusg

Sorry, I only just saw this.

Yes, the infinite loop bug has indeed been fixed:
Version 2.16 2023/04/18
- Fixed an infinite loop in code to get PCIe speed capabilities, which would
trigger if the parent PCIe device isn't the root controller

Hans

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Re: Upcoming Mirari PPC motherboard
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@tao

Quote:
Maybe the manufacturer is expecting a driver module in the Linux kernel? Mmm, hadn't considered that.


Geennaam has written an NVMe device driver for AmigaOS, and also an audio driver (for the HDAUDIO codec). So he might actually write the needed drivers himself.

Quote:
I figured the architecture is similar enough that they might eventually stumble on the answer. That is, if they perform Linux DMA tests comparing the Merari with the X5000 and find both are similar, then maybe it's a limitation of the SoC ?

There's a decent chance that they're similar, and it would be awesome if someone stumbled on the answer regarding DMA performance.

When the A1-XE was first released, everyone thought that the audio interface was broken, and the audio codec chip and related components were removed from subsequent batches. A few years later someone discovered that the audio interface was just fine; the power saving subsystem just had it powered down by default.


One challenge we've had, is that PPC Linux has no working drivers for RadeonHD/RX drivers. At least on big-endian PPC. The drivers should work on little-endian PowerPC Linux. If we could run the same graphics cards under Linux on the X5000, then we could get some idea of what performance would be possible.

Quote:
Oh, I hadn't realized that! Then kudos to them both for undertaking this project!

Incidentally, both Geennaam and Skateman are from the Netherlands. Geennaam means "no name."

Hans

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Re: Sneak Peek Inside Kea Campus (Saving AmigaOS Series)
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@all

The next video in the "Saving AmigaOS" series is out now. It covers how we could modernize the OS while still being able to run old Amiga software. And, do it all on a tiny budget.

This is exclusive to the Kea Campus' Amiga corner, which you can join by clicking here. You'll be able to watch the entire series which covers all my thoughts on how AmigaOS (4.x) could be turned around and become great again in all aspects: business, technology, etc.

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Hans

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Re: Project - hardware to run AOS4 for 35 euro on QEMU 10 + GPU  passthrough
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@smarkusg

Look at the MemCopy tests. Those are the only ones that are affeced by G3 vs G4. Normally, a G4's memcopy results would be roughly 2x that of the G3, because the altivec instructions can move data in 128-bit blocks instead of max 64-bit like the FPU. That makes a big difference with PCIe.

On QEmu, it depends entirely how the altivec instructions are translated to the host machine's CPU (and how good the machine's PCIe controller is).

Hans

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Re: Project - hardware to run AOS4 for 35 euro on QEMU 10 + GPU  passthrough
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@joerg

Quote:
Using a kickstart module text file for config:
If you have access to the AmigaOS 4.x sources check for example my diskboot.kmod sources (Hyperion has no permission to use it anymore, but you can use the part of my sources parsing the config for your drivers).
IIRC it's something like...

Thanks, I'll take a look.

I wish that the uboot/firmware ENV variables were workable with QEMu, because that would be much simpler.

Quote:
@geennams's nearly 2 GB/s nvme.device benchmark result on the X5000 with PCIe x4 v2.0 is only a theoretical result, transferring 128 MB of data in a single DMA transfer is next to never done with real world DOS/filesystem operations.
Using 16 KB it's only 222 MB/s, and with the max. transfer size NGFS uses (128 KB) it's 450 MB/s.
I don't know anything about 3D GPUs, but I guess most GPU texture, etc. DMA transfers are quite small as well and not several MB at once either.

Hmmm. Looking at the lower-end results in his table (link), they're on the slow side for what I'd expect. PCIe overhead isn't so large that you need to transfer 10s to 100s of MB to get up to the GB/s transfer speeds. He probably has other overhead slowing things down.

We hit such overhead when using the CPU's DMA engines for WritePixelArray/ReadPixel array. The overhead of setting up blocks of RAM for DMA, and then unlocking them again added up. We still managed to get up to 1GB/s, depending on the CPU & GPU combo (e.g., this result).

Hans

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Re: Project - hardware to run AOS4 for 35 euro on QEMU 10 + GPU  passthrough
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@balaton

Quote:
On real hardware sure but I meant for QEMU with vfio-pci. I don't even know if it would work currently so maybe it's not top priority over other possible improvements. But adding a config for it helps testing it in any case.


VFIO gives direct access to real hardware. Provided that the address mappings are set up correctly (i.e., the guest OS' physical addresses match the actual physical addresses), then GART would enable the GPU's DMA engines to read/write directly to RAM. That should make a difference.

For testing, GART was accidentally enabled in RadeonRX.chip v2.14 (at least for the Sam460). I can't remember if that one was released, or if we caught that during beta testing. Either way, anyone with access that version would be able to test. Eventuall v54.8 will make it to a public release.


Quote:
They say optimists are oblivious pessimists But it does look like from my perspective that your work is just going into a black hole...


Yes, Matthew (i.e., @amigakit) is very preoccupied with the A600GS and A1200GS, which slows down everything else. He's the bottleneck.

Bear in mind:
1. The VirtioGPU driver is a brand new product, which therefore requires extra work from @amigakit to release, and he's preoccupied with another project...
2. The Pegasos2 kernel patches are in ExecSG, and Hyperion is in charge of its release schedule. Hyperion is in a total mess right now, although work is happening behind-the-scenes
3. The RadeonHD/RX drivers are existing products, and releasing a new update takes a lot less work

Hans

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