look at that machine's uptime.. when the same for amigaos4+ ?
----------------- Running: Linux 2.4.X|2.5.X|2.6.X OS details: Linux 2.4.0 - 2.5.20, Gentoo 1.2 linux (Kernel 2.4.19-gentoo-rc5), Linux 2.4.20, Linux 2.4.20 - 2.4.22 w/grsecurity.org patch, Linux 2.5.25 - 2.6.3 or Gentoo 1.2 Linux 2.4.19 rc1-rc7) Uptime 1.770 days (since Tue Jul 24 20:34:08 2007)
right now the uptime of an os4 machine doesn't exceed 3weeks in very exceptional cases.. for standard uses and users, it's rather few hours, or if lucky few days (2~3days)
when will amigaos get unicode support? when will developper will concentrate on useful features instead of try to keep compatibility with a dead and outdated old API (os3.x) ?
amigaos is weak to regain it's glory, it need to be stronger, stablier. and eventualy get unicode so anyone anywhere in the would could use it.
keisangi wrote: right now the uptime of an os4 machine doesn't exceed 3weeks in very exceptional cases.. for standard uses and users, it's rather few hours, or if lucky few days (2~3days)
I'm not sure uptime is relevant for anything other than a server.
I can actually get good uptimes out of my A1, when I'm not debugging code at least. When I was crunching RC5 keys on it a while back, uptimes of a week or more were not unusual. Then my desire not to waste electricity became greater than seeing OS4.0 rising in the RC5 stats...
The only reason this Linux box I'm typing on has an uptime of 4 days is that it's so excruciating slow to boot that I'd rather not wait around for it to boot up when I'm pressed for time - so I leave it on.
If you are using OS4 native programs only, you wouldn't cry for better uptime.
"when will developper will concentrate on useful features instead of try to keep compatibility with a dead and outdated old API (os3.x) ?"
Like the new memory system? Because of that a lot of OS3.x program died, not talking about WarpOS support too.
I understand your frustration about the full unicode support, but we are not there yet to say: we're done. More patience please. Bashing won't help here.
A1-XE/G4@933+Radeon7500/64MB, A1200BPPC+BVision AmigaOS4 on both of course.
i undertand you both have valid arguments. i don't like to waste electricity either, i like ecology a lot and i'm against waste and global warming ....(add a lot here about our current civilisation model...)
but i'm saying amigaos can be crashed anytime by a bad app. some ppl will argue that they select carefully application they run so random crash doesn't happen much, and someothers will argue that with correct configuration they can get a strong and stable system.
i'm all in favor of the new memory system hyperion is building. i hope it will get even thougher.
amigaos need to become stable as a rock. not only server need to achieve long uptime.
and what's worst than, say you go off to bed, letting your os4 box running on some downloads, crunching, or any other tasks .. rendering or whatever, and you wake up in the morning to see it crashed during the night .. all the work is lost, now that's even more waste of electricity..
say you go off to work same way, with your os4 box left running on some task, and when you get back home, it died miserably during the day, maybe even altering harddrive partitions or lost half downloaded file, or half rendered scene .. or whatever..
this os need to get stablier.. and eventualy need utf8 and what prevent us to get such vital feature for a modern OS ? wanting to achieve compatibility with os3.x natively..
this could be done in a lots of other way, such as sandbox approach, emulation, virtualization etc .. implementing this natively mean the new OS is at the mercy of the OLD api weak points it try to achieve compatibility with.
i'm not baashing, i'm tryed to get ppl to open their eyes.
plus i'm really doing this in the wrong place, cause i'm a fan of open source, i discovered it when i've quit amiga 10years ago. i shoud say all this on AROS forums instead ;)
closed source model are even more dead.. so a old api and a old development model..
You asked it before and I answered it before, multiple times. This time I'll try to save some of my time and nerves and wont answer again, sorry. You can read the old threads here and on AW.net again (searching for "Unicode" and "japanese" should find them), my answers would not be much different today.
indeed .. you're right there'a problem with the command i used:
(checking for network security holes.. then sawing that big uptime i got excited to forward it to you all amigans ..)
# nmap -sT -O localhost
Starting nmap 3.70 ( http://www.insecure.org/nmap/ ) at 2007-07-26 17:35 JST Interesting ports on localhost.localdomain (127.0.0.1): (The 1643 ports scanned but not shown below are in state: closed) PORT STATE SERVICE 21/tcp open ftp 22/tcp open ssh 25/tcp open smtp 80/tcp open http 32770/tcp open sometimes-rpc3 Device type: general purpose Running: Linux 2.4.X|2.5.X|2.6.X OS details: Linux 2.5.25 - 2.6.3 or Gentoo 1.2 Linux 2.4.19 rc1-rc7) Uptime 1.876 days (since Tue Jul 24 20:34:07 2007) Nmap run completed -- 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 2.231 seconds [root@kxtest ~]
i ran the same command on the same machine few hours ago and it reported around 1.700 days and now only few hours later it reports around 1800 days ..
well instead of nmap, let's use the good old "uptime" command:
not quite 1700 nor 1800 days but, your os4 machine's still up to the task ?
.. btw when i did my thesis, my machine ran some 200 or something days .. watching movies, writing my thesis with openoffice, playing games with wine, browsing the net ... not a problem or a reboot for more than 200 days with everything kept opened like this night and day... that 100page thesis, that browser with tons of opened tabs ....etc ..that was 6 years ago.. using redhat8 iirc
but i'm saying amigaos can be crashed anytime by a bad app.
IMHO its possible to crash every OS with a bad app, there exists a hacker scene which tries to prove that every day. Examples of uncrashable OSes (which allow the user to start any application he wants to start) are welcome.
And IMHO an OS which doesnt use shared memory would not be AmigaOS anymore, its one of its basic features. Yes, a feature, not a bug. When you think shared memory is a bug, not a feature, you should not use AmigaOS.
yea i bet you won't repeat it.. cause the answers weren't that good in fact.. you answer was basicaly: users should add support themselves (creating charsets and all). authors of old patch for os3.x should adapt their patchs to os4 and, unicode for os4 won't happen anytime soon, cause it's not easy to do it. and that kind of things...
rogue called you and expert about encoding and unicode .. well you'd better be cause adding modern features to that old mule doesn't seems easy indeed.
but at that pace, os4 won't get anything (modern feature wise) for quite some time ..
what about the idea of sand boxing os3.x stuffs? or whatever else instead of native reimplementation of it ?
amigaos wont go nowhere sticking to the old stuff like that ..
IMHO its possible to crash every OS with a bad app, there exists a hacker scene which tries to prove that every day. Examples of uncrashable OSes (which allow the user to start any application he wants to start) are welcome.
And IMHO an OS which doesnt use shared memory would not be AmigaOS anymore, its one of its basic features. Yes, a feature, not a bug. When you think shared memory is a bug, not a feature, you should not use AmigaOS.
lol ok.. so you can crash every system.. maybe .. okay why not .. then what about getting an OS that could be crashed as much as linux, or macosX ?
and btw, hyperion doesn't seems to agree with your "view" of amigaos, cause they said implementing memory protection is gonna happen at somepoint and they already started doing it. not as much as i would like but .. still.
so basicaly you're saying that amigaos to stay amigaos, it shouldn't evolve and stay on the same bases it was 20 years ago ? wow .. that's an interesting point of view..
how can we call that ? ultra conservative ? anti-progress ? maybe Metathesiophobia (fear of changes) ? dunno .. but for me evolution is important, the needs of 20 years ago and the needs now in 2007 aren't the same, you gotta keep up with your time, or you'll get called old fart or things like this eventually..
ok.. so you can crash every system.. maybe .. okay why not .. then what about getting an OS that could be crashed as much as linux, or macosX ? edit: typo
It just so happens that Hyperion does not have hundreds of full-time developers working on the OS, like Apple or Microsoft does. They have done a miracle so far with the limited resources available and while there are many things that could be improved (and many things that will be improved), I'm very happy with the OS in its current state, what's more important now is to get more applications, like a decent web browser (e.g. Firefox) and a few others withot which the OS is not all that useful. Also, we need to have OS4 released on the Sam440 and other hardware so that people can get access to it. Big changes like full memory protection, paging, new graphic system, unicode support, etc. probably won't happen any time soon, my guess is that we'll have some of those maybe 1 year from now, some others maybe 2-3 years from now. The OS development was not progressing for many years so it's hard to catch up with the rest, especially when you have much less money and developers than the competitors.
maybe i should be more patient then .. what you and chip said is true.. i agree about having os4 on new hardware is high priority .. and ressources are limited.. true
i just hope AmigaOS evolves up to todays standards .. in fact what i really hope for, is just an os with the Amiga look and feel and the stability of linux and modern OS features .. and open source too , so it cannot fails and be doomed to stagnate for years like we all witnessed since commodore went down.
and btw, hyperion doesn't seems to agree with your "view" of amigaos
I dont speak for Hyperion. Yes, I have a contract with them, I've heard its public in the meantime, as part of the ongoing court case.
IMHO its pretty normal that every single user and developer has its own idea what makes AmigaOS unique, what should be improved, what should be removed. I think that this is basically a good thing, but sometimes it results in useless flame wars.
Quote:
so basicaly you're saying that amigaos to stay amigaos, it shouldn't evolve and stay on the same bases it was 20 years ago ? wow .. that's an interesting point of view..
Thanks for misinterpreting my statement.
Where exactly did I write AmigaOS should not get memory protection?
You seem to want an AmigaOS that doesnt use any shared memory anymore. From my point of view something like this should not be called "evolvement" but "incompatible".
To rephrase it again, asking for total memory protection as a solution to avoid crashes caused by already existing bad applications doesnt make sense from a programmers point of view. Existing applications need shared memory, either you give them shared memory which allows the bad applications to cause crashes, or you dont give them shared memory, then they cant run anymore. IMHO there exist exactly these two options. You are asking for the third option, giving them shared memory and allowing them to modify it when the modification is harmless but not allowing them to modify it when the modification is not harmless.
It would make sense if you would have asked for limited memory protection, e.g. protecting program code, read-only data/bss, unallocated memory, the zeropage or the lower end of the stack. Thats already implemented...
Quote:
how can we call that ? ultra conservative ? anti-progress ?
When you think that my contributions to AmigaOS did not bring it forward and that I'm blocking development, feel free to replace me. There probably exist lots of better developers out there, e.g. AmigaInc could pay them, just ask Fleecy about it.
Quote:
but for me evolution is important, the needs of 20 years ago and the needs now in 2007 aren't the same, you gotta keep up with your time, or you'll get called old fart or things like this eventually..
Thanks for the compliment. Thanks for deciding what I have to do with my time. Maybe you find somebody else who likes to be told what to do by you.
IMHO your expectations are simply unrealistic. Adding full memory protection and full Unicode support to a 20 year old OS while porting it to a different CPU and hardware while keeping backwards compatibility sounds like a too big challenge to me, especially with a user base of about some hundreds only, no money, no sales, and no hardware. You already got what you paid for and should IMHO accept when you dont get more for free just because you want it.
You can try to ask the AROS devopers about the features you want, or you can try to ask the Linux developers about the ability to run existing AmigaOS applications under full memory protection, but please stop asking me, IIRC I've answered multiple times already that I wont answer any questions when AmigaOS has full Unicode support, and you probably will find no developer who will answer you when AmigaOS has full memory protection.
Trust me, we would all love to see OS4 with twice the features it currently has, and we'd love to have that yesterday, but it's simply not realistic to expect a couple of full-time developers and a dozen or two part-time developers to achieve this so quicky. If this team had the chance to continue development of AmigaOS shortly after Commodore went under, we'd be in a much better position. But there were many years when there was no development of AmigaOS whatsoever, while all the other operating systems kept on advancing. So there's a lot to catch up on, but I think AmigaOS has already come VERY far, and that with the right applications, and steadily available, affordable hardware, it would be attractive enough for many computer enthusiasts in its current state.
Personally I don't have any stability problems, the only software that crashes for me occasionally is IBrowse.
Just a little tip for the future. More people will understand your point of view if you try to apply a somewhat less aggressive posting style.
Personally I do agree that AmigaOS needs a lot of modern core OS features that are missing today. Backward compability to the old OS model just isn't interesting to me as long as the general Amiga look and feel is preserved. But even so I don't think using an aggressive tone is going to motivate anyone to make it happen.
My machine's uptime is usually short because I switch it off when I'm not using it. Another reason for the low uptime could be the habit of resetting the machine after an app crashes, just in case. A reset only takes 20 seconds or so, so it's no big deal. However, with the existing memory protection in place, we probably don't need to do this most of the time.
Generally speaking, I've found Amiga OS4 to be pretty stable.
There is a limited amount of hours per day (24 when I last counted) so there is a certain limit as to what you can do. Add to that the fact that resources are wasted elsewhere, the result is slow progress.
That does not mean, however, that nothing is going on. Quite the contrary.
Memory protection is already implemented to a certain degree, but there are limits as to what can be done with the current AmigaOS. We plan to address this in a future version (think something like 4.x with x > 0) by introducing a few architectural changes I won't go into right now.
This also goes for other areas. International character support is one of these, right now, the graphics library API is somewhat limited, but plainly, the need for e.g. different writing directions is underwhelmingly small, and there are other areas in the OS that have a much higher priority.
These things will be addressed over time.
Finally, let me remark that once you stop posting like a 13 year old, I might be more inclined to discuss things.
Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
I agreed with you a lot of times regarding UTF support in OS4, but frankly in no way I find it right the way you keep arguing with TetiSoft. In your phrasing you always make it sound, like he's the culprit of OS4 not being upto the standards other oses are or him being the one holding innovation back. That's not fair, from my point of view he tries to explains in a non-developer understandable way why many things are not possible yet. The first goal was to port AmigaOS to PPC. Now they can start adding other features. Obviously the most important first.
About that sandboxing thing, it sounds like a good idea too, but I think we don't have to forget that the hole AmigaOS to PPC process started a while back and AFAIK and remember this current approach was chosen back then. So what, should they have thrown away all the work and started from scratch somewhen in the middle of the process? Could they even do that wihtout changing contracts already signed?
I'm pretty happy with the state of OS4 and considering all this legal thing that is going on and the crap that might be has happended behind the scenes, even more that we have what we have.
I'm not sure what you think is to be gained by talking in a rude manner. I don't think it will get the desired response.
As others have said, there are only a few individuals who are developing AOS4. They have done an incredible job, especially considering this work has been done during the hours after their regular employment -- in many instances. It has been almost a labor of love -- love for the Amiga -- your insults are a poor reward to them, IMHO. There is only so much that they can do in the time available.
ATPIT, the most important thing (again IMHO) is to have some hardware to run AOS4 on. Without that hardware, it hardly matters what is, or isn't missing from AOS4. Without that hardware, there will not be new applications developed for AOS4 -- and in that case, we will all (those of us who AOS4) have to continue using older 68K applications.
As to the length of time one can keep AOS4 running, I have no idea. When I'm done using it, I turn it off. I'm concerned about the electricity usage -- and I'm also trying to keep my AOne alive as long as possible, as there may be no replacements if/when it dies.
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I bet any OS4 machine could beat that 
