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Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Quite a regular
Joined:
2006/11/24 17:14
Posts: 624
Allow me to say a few words on the topic. Everything I say here is my personal opinion/perception. I do not represent either Hyperion nor A-Eon, and I would like this to be understood. It should be obvious, but the past has taught me

Timberwolf's situation is pretty bad, and I can understand that people are upset. It's been a while since there was any sign of life from it, and clearly this cannot go on like this. We're working on a solution for the situation, and I hope we will be able to say more real soon. I can't say more on this at this point.

On the topic of Warp3D: It was pointed out to me in a mail that I obviously give more time to ARMA than to the Amiga. It's funny that you should mention this game. As some of you may or may not know, the third installment of the series was announced in 2011, to be released in early 2012. Unfortunately, things didn't quite work out of the company, and now, in 2013, the game is still unreleased (a public beta is available, but the release date has been set to the 12th of September).

As you most likely already figured out, I am a big fan of the game. So after it was now delayed for over one and a half year, we had to find out that a lot of features we had been looking forward to got axed from the game. Long delay, plus axed features, I wasn't happy. I was pretty disappointed. But I did not feel betrayed. It's a product, not a marriage. The team fell on pretty hard times. Such is life.

Back to Warp3D. The situation there is pretty much the same. Announced with a release date that couldn't be kept. And likewise, it's a product. Not a marriage, or a vow, or any such thing. Products get delayed. Sometimes even canceled. Features get axed. New features get added. While I can understand the disappointment, I do not understand that people tend to make a big deal about it. Someone referred to it as “waiting hell”. I beg your pardon? It's not like you are waiting for an oxygen mask on a decompressed plane. It's just a product. Don't make more out of it.

So, a product that got delayed. One of the reasons is that I had initially deemed the task easier than it is. My original idea was to work on the RadeonHD 45xx, which is covered to a certain extend by the documentation. The Evergreen series isn't. It turned out that a lot of things are quite different. I had done Warp3D driver before; I had done the initial Virge and Voodoo drivers (although Thom did the bigger part of the work on the Voodoo), I wrote the R100 and the R200 drivers. Evergreen is a different beast.

Another issue is timing. Different setups, depending on the maker or the BIOS revision of the card, make life quite a bit more difficult. And the codebase is huge. Just to give you an idea, the function that generates the pixel shader from the Env Combiners is almost twice the size as the entire compositing code in the RadeonHD driver. The shaders can get to half a kilobyte of code, and more.

Also, I had to share the time with the work on Gallium. There is a certain synergy between those, but not too much. Gallium is one of these projects where you try to balance a load of things that sometimes contradict each other: A model that is Amiga-like enough to serve as a system library, it has to be low-level enough to be able to work with nothing but bitmaps, needs to be re-entrant, needs to be thread-safe, needs to be multicore capable, and it needs to be able to load some other driver than a Gallium based one. All of this takes time, especially if you are trying to do it in such a way that you don't create a situation that will result in a support nightmare – you want something that can grow along with the rest, not hold anything back.

Now, if you are looking for dates or estimates, I won't give them. It's proven to be unreliable anyway. It will be done, when it's done.

Finally, something more personal. Things haven't been easy in the last couple of years. The Amiga had been my hobby for a long time, but as with so many things, once they become work, they stop to be a hobby. Also, the trench fighting in the Amiga community was getting to me, and it was better to just leave. What bothered me most wasn't necessarily the difference of opinion but rather the attempts, from both sides, to make life more difficult for the other. Oh, yeah, and there was this big-ass lawsuit, and the numerous attempts to cash in on the work we've done. Once it comes to this, you're better off far away from it all.

I don't believe in religion, but if there was a reincarnation, I would know one thing that I would change - never step into the spotlight. It doesn't do you any good, it just means you are visible for everybody to take cheap shots at. Like with actors, people tend to not see the person but rather the work. Stick with a nickname, and never let the real you come out. You'll regret it. I know I do.

One more thing, I haven't read any Amiga sites in years and I do not plan to change that, so if you feel you want to say something, I will most likely not read it. If you feel you have something important to say to me, feel free to write me an email (No Pm's, I don't read them) - unless it's "f*** off", I heard that enough.

And apologies for the length of this.


Edited by Rigo on 2013/8/22 22:12:53
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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Guest_
Thanks. Sadly people should appriciate ANYONE that is doing any real development, even with delays and everything associated, as long as they don`t give up. And even if they do for trying.

Sad heritage of camp wars is having people (Moo is great mirror to that) just waiting for some bad news or delays to present them as doom - end of times scenario.

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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Home away from home
Joined:
2006/12/2 3:55
From Italy, Perugia
Posts: 2975
@Rogue

First of all welcome back

Quote:
Timberwolf's situation is pretty bad, and I can understand that people are upset. It's been a while since there was any sign of life from it, and clearly this cannot go on like this. We're working on a solution for the situation, and I hope we will be able to say more real soon. I can't say more on this at this point.


Well as i said on the other thread what upset most of us (normal users and certainly not the few trolls around) is not the waiting, but how many of these foundamental projects are carried out

When somethings big will be announced we as users (we) can understand the difficult, therefore the right time to wait, In fact we all are still waiting with enthusiasm

But that's not the point, the key points imho are that: (quoting myself) -->

"Negative feedbacks comes only when things are done wrong, i don't mean "done wrong" in technical way of course, but when things will be announced and then still frozen for centuries for no apparent reason, then you discover that they are doing another 1000 things without having done the first one, an example.."

And that:

"did you ask yourself why people ask for Firefox, Gallium and then also LibreOffice ?
They wait any of them just because all that project was announced right ? .. and if that is true way all that kind of (big) projects was announced and then started all togheter when still pretty clear that there aren't the necessary means to carry them out all together ?
LibreOffice was so necessary when you need to complete Timberwolf first and even more all the other important components of the OS ?
I don't think so, normal behaviour in any normal world should be announce a project and then try to complete it, then after that (and only after that) start something else .."


Quote:
Finally, something more personal. Things haven't been easy in the last couple of years. The Amiga had been my hobby for a long time, but as with so many things, once they become work, they stop to be a hobby. Also, the trench fighting in the Amiga community was getting to me, and it was better to just leave. What bothered me most wasn't necessarily the difference of opinion but rather the attempts, from both sides, to make life more difficult for the other. Oh, yeah, and there was this big-ass lawsuit, and the numerous attempts to cash in on the work we've done. Once it comes to this, you're better off far away from it all.


Well i know that anyone have a different sensitivity, but why don't you just ignore them ?

Personally i always ignored them and i always lived happy, most of us do that and we have no problem at all, i can't stop to do somethings important just because some idiots talk and talk againts me, my work or my hobby, let them talk ...

More important you know that this portal was and always is pratically troll free, all the OS4 coders and any normal users are here at amigans.net, no one will upset any others as it sometimes happen on the other Amiga portals, so even if i can't judge I do not understand your absence from here .. imho this should be your daily forum and all OS4 users will be extremly happy to talk more often with you or with your brothers about their technical problems, projects and so on .. please think about that


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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Quite a regular
Joined:
2006/11/27 17:23
Posts: 535
@Rogue

Thanks for the update.
As a coder I fully understand where you're coming from.

If I were you I'd redirect your DNS entry for "Amiga.org" to a site about fluffy bunnies and kittens, and then you should be safe from most of the partisan zealots. Seriously - don't let them get to you. There's a large number of us who really appreciate the work you've done and continue to do.
I would recommend not taking on too many projects at once, though!

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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Just can't stay away
Joined:
2006/12/9 10:44
From Lyon, France
Posts: 1314
@samo
While I understand that you say:
Quote:
when things will be announced and then still frozen for centuries for no apparent reason, then you discover that they are doing another 1000 things without having done the first one

you need to take care of what you say and how you say it.
There are often very good reasons for delays and also to do "other things". This is what life is about. There is nothing wrong there even if you think there is.
More elegantly you could have say something like:
Quote:
we have seen several projects announced and then stopped. This is why we tend to be nervous when this happens again. That's why we asked about the project status. Anyway thanks for your commitment and work on this.

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http://elwoodb.free.fr
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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Not too shy to talk
Joined:
2006/12/6 19:36
Posts: 413
Thank You for the update, enjoy what You do and don't let the trolls and everything get at You. I really appreciate everything You and you brother did for the platform, and hopefully will continue to do.

I send YOu big Thank you and a handshake!

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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Home away from home
Joined:
2006/11/26 21:45
From A haunted Castle somewhere in the Bavarian Mountains
Posts: 2878
Thank you Rogue.

Thank you for all the work you've already done and hopefully keep on doing.

You made a lot of people happy (those who stayed and believed) and a lot more jealous (those who left before Amiga gained momentum again).

Don't let them bring you down and don't let other people judge your work (apart from those who pay you, probably)

Be assured that there are a lot of people out there who can wait and simply stay silent most of the time for reasons you already described --> spotlight...once in those b***tards know where to aim the foul tomatoes at

*I* like what you're doing and i will wait because i know there are great things to come

...i mean, it's not that i will die tomorrow and if...such is life

Kutau to you, your brother, the master developer organizer (ssolie) and all the people behind the scenes keeping the dream alive...

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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Just popping in
Joined:
2010/6/17 14:04
From Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)
Posts: 247
@Rogue

Quote:
If I were you I'd redirect your DNS entry for "Amiga.org" to a site about fluffy bunnies and kittens, and then you should be safe from most of the partisan zealots. Seriously - don't let them get to you. There's a large number of us who really appreciate the work you've done and continue to do.

indeed. many of us appreciate the work done on the OS tremendously; i enjoy it in its current state and if something advances along the OGL/SMP/libreoffice/timberwolf fronts, then so much the better.

i've also been spending less time on the forums than i used to. i even tried to help make amiga.org a nicer place -- not just for AOS4 users, but everyone. i gave up. so i completely understand rogue's attitude here.

as people have said in the past we depend very heavily on the work of the frieden brothers, as well as the other active OS developers. given the lack of remuneration for so many, it must remain a hobby, and above all enjoyable. if it ceases to be so, not only does the developer suffer, but all those who enjoy and appreciate their work.

if there is anything we can do collectively to make the experience of interacting with the community something nice again, i'm sure we'd be happy to oblige. we're all just trying to enjoy our amigas, so we're all in this together.

-- eliyahu

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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Quite a regular
Joined:
2008/3/11 8:29
From Dunedin, New Zealand
Posts: 868
Rogue

Thanks for the insight; I've been very quiet myself in alot of ways in the last few years too, some of it has to do with my Beta status also. Many times I've posted only to add them to a txt file, gee is that file quite long. I read it from time to time, for some twisted entertainment perhaps?

I think you know me pretty well, as in, I'm a dedicated supporter of AmigaOS and its custom hardware solutions and I have all the patience in the world for what you coder gentlemen do.

Unfortunately people do not understand just how fragile we have become. I'm not talking about myself because well, I'm a freaking pillar of strength LOL but I'm talking about the way people forget about the importance of being positive and understanding, caring and encouraging. What has happened to the Amiga mentality. Well I actually know but we won't go there huh.

Raziel, that was simply amazing what you said, well done dude! and Eliyahu some added insight, very cool and good words.

Samo79 and some others NEED to realise that your constant watchdog tactics are very stressful and can send the wrong messages; sure you feel like you're fighting the good fight of the public and always pushing for info and believe you stop things from dying or being forgotten but as I said, this is a fragile situation and people who are doing work NEED space and NEED to be allowed to MAKE decisions and we NEED to be supportive putting aside our own perceptions.

I too like what is being done and I don't care if some things don't make the light of day, some will and they'll be great to add to an already working computer setup - I gave fairly generously to the Timberwolf incentive and the reason I gave them the money was because I wanted to help them and show them what they did mattered to me, it wasn't because I had any expectations of them or regardless of what lay ahead

People NEED to understand that this is what we make of it, we cannot expect the same processes that other huge platforms take for granted. It's just not plausible and it's never going to happen. All that happens is year after year the fragile structure we have gets weaker. Even in spite of great individuals like Trevor Dickinson and the others in those circles equally as important.

I meet Trevor a few weekends ago in Wellington for the first time ever and we had a great time and when we parted I said to him very sincerely, that I hope in the not too distant future my business ventures allow me to lend a hand to his endevours. He shook my hand back and I believe he said he looks forward to that and I aim to try my best and not let down my new friend.

At the moment I do my best by supporting his hardware incentives and trading with Amigakit as much as I can and lets not forget ACube.

If we want to be around we have to fight and some times dig deep and we have to help each other. I'm going to continue to do this, how about you?

Cheers

p.s. it's a bit rushed, it's 3:30am and I need some sleep :p

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3x AmigaOne X1000 1.8GHz 2gM RadeonHD7970 AOS4.x
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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Just can't stay away
Joined:
2006/12/9 10:44
From Lyon, France
Posts: 1314
@Slayer

+1 or even 2

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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Just popping in
Joined:
2006/12/2 11:14
From South Florida, USA
Posts: 196
(Quietly,,now that Slayer is asleep....)

Two sections of Rogues post hit me where I live.

Quote:

My original idea was to work on the RadeonHD 45xx, which is covered to
a certain extend by the documentation. The Evergreen series isn't.
It turned out that a lot of things are quite different..........
Evergreen is a different beast.

Another issue is timing. Different setups, depending on the maker or the
BIOS revision of the card, make life quite a bit more difficult. And the
codebase is huge. Just to give you an idea, the function that generates
the pixel shader from the Env Combiners is almost twice the size as the
entire compositing code in the RadeonHD driver.


Now I have been around awhile and tinkering with hardware and the software
that makes it work is a huge part of my hobby. (NO! I'm not a programmer.)

One of the reasons I like Amiga is hardware stability, and when you spend
enough time poking around in there you find things that are undocumented
or perhaps you question why the software accesses a portion of the hardware
one way when clearly another way would be more efficient, or simpler, or
more suitable for the job at hand, and sometimes you find something that
is just plain wrong. Little things,,, that can make a big difference.

This was meaningful to me on the classics and in the early days of hobby
computing, but with ever changing hardware the search for a 'Golden Key'
to unlock various aspects of some function has become pretty meaningless,
because when found, you realize that too many have upgraded to new locks
and your key is useless.

I'm not bitching about what most will consider progress, just lamenting
about one aspect of 'When computing was FUN' being crushed under the hard
wheels of that progress.

Ah well, tomorrow is another day.

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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Just popping in
Joined:
2006/11/24 14:19
From Georgia, USA. Just north of the Florida border
Posts: 207
Speaking as a developer, I am frustrated with the "vocal few" that seek to piss on anything good that is not for their brand of Amiga. Instead of building for their own platform, they seek to spoil what others build. I could go into more detail, but I see no benefit.

I just try to remember that most of our community, and surely the best of our community, are just out there USING the platform instead of complaining about what they don't have.

Speaking as a user, I am amazed at what we have already. I have owned classics, a micro, and now an X1000. I am using a powerful, stable Amiga that uses standard mouse, keyboard, monitor, RAM, sound and networking hardware. I am running a graphics card that is WAY more powerful than OCS or ECS could ever touch. And AmigaOS has elevated my expectations too. If I were to sit in front of Workbench 3.0 right now I would be sorely disappointed. It's just not as powerful or graceful as what we have today.

Please think about that for a moment. What is 4.x "worth" over the previous classic versions? Speaking for myself, the hundreds of hours spent using this OS compared to the money paid for it. (for me, it's thousands of hours easily)

I am grateful that the programmers leading the way are planning for the future. I assume they know better than I do what should happen next, and I am NOT here to tell them what to do or how to do it.

I am glad that development continues, and I'll contribute whatever I can towards that goal.

Meanwhile I'm learning to just ignore those who seek to spoil the party for the rest of us.

And a big "Thank You" for those getting it done.

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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Home away from home
Joined:
2009/7/7 3:34
From Toronto, Canada
Posts: 2198
Quote:


At the moment I do my best by supporting his hardware incentives and trading with Amigakit as much as I can and lets not forget ACube.

If we want to be around we have to fight and some times dig deep and we have to help each other. I'm going to continue to do this, how about you?


+ 1! My battle gear is on

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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Not too shy to talk
Joined:
2007/1/6 5:59
Posts: 312
Multiple projects can be real nightmare. You should put all them on hold, chose one wich you are going to complete and after that, restart those other projects.

Another way would be asking help.

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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Just can't stay away
Joined:
2007/10/25 9:21
From Gothenburg / Sweden
Posts: 1175
Thanks for the update

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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Quite a regular
Joined:
2010/5/16 11:20
From Grimsby, UK
Posts: 947
Thanks for the update Rogue, I'd also like to join the silent majority and say thank you for your continued work and look forward with great excitement to see your labour of love finally being realised.

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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Just popping in
Joined:
2006/12/5 21:26
From Planet Boing
Posts: 68
Thanks for the update Rogue. Hope you catch some good speed for the various projects you and the others work on. Rest assured that when the various projects are finished, the noise from true amigans will FAR outweight the negative responses. Trust me on this one! - so keep up the spirit. There are MANY people silently cheering for you and the other devs. Try and keep us updated and you yourself and the other devs stops a lot of mumbling and rumourmongering.

Now go and kill some bad guys in ARMA

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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Just popping in
Joined:
2006/12/1 10:38
From Amigavatikan
Posts: 174
Thanks for your update and your great work on AmigaOS 4.1.

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A4000T CyberstormPPC 604e-200Mhz/060/128MB+CybervisionPPC 8MB +AmigaOS4
and anymore other Amigas...
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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Home away from home
Joined:
2006/11/20 16:26
From Norway
Posts: 2639
I appreciate your work, I some time think your taking on a to big responsibility, and it seam to me that a lot of things you did say you where going to do was more complicated then expected, maybe you should delicate some of work to others, to put less stress on your self, you don't need to take on the world by your self.

I also under stand the people who nag, they also what the platform to be successful, and useful, or at least not shameful to talk about to there friends, so many things are lacking and not comparable to other operating systems, even whit all the work put in, every thing should have been done 20 years ago, and we are just catching up.

It's not Hyperions fault or your fault, its just that you take on all the challenges and get all the blame, don't put more in your month then you can chew.


Edited by LiveForIt on 2013/8/22 19:26:57
Edited by LiveForIt on 2013/8/22 19:28:31
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Re: Timberwolf, Warp3D and ARMA
Home away from home
Joined:
2007/5/19 13:23
From England
Posts: 3489
@Rogue
It's sad you don't follow any Amiga news sites at all. I can understand not following Amiga.org, AW.net, and to be honest most other Amiga sites (sadly), but www.Amigans.net seems a pretty decent place. (edit: And so is www.os4coding.net , and even aros-exec.org .)

Even on the 'good' sites a few people will still say some thoughtlessly nasty things, or say things in a way which sounds nasty (due to English not being their first language), but such things are probably fairly rare, and I would hope could be ignored with a little effort (as you won't be being baited by trolls).

I do occasionally still visit AW.net, but usually regret it.

@eliyahu Quote:
i even tried to help make amiga.org a nicer place -- not just for AOS4 users, but everyone. i gave up

Been there & done that with AW.net (although you may disagree about that site...). A site is either worth supporting or it's not: You can't make a site a better place than the people running that site want it to be.

www.Amigans.net has flaws (the biggest being the current hopefully-temporary registration block), but it is at least usually a fairly calm & restrained place, with moderators who are not afraid of moderating just because they might get called names by a few trolls on other sites.

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