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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Illusionist
Illusionist


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Quote:

orgin wrote:
@trixie

WAR WAR WAR WAR!


Resized Image
The real secret of the Minions: The Glow Effect!

GLOW GLOW GLOW GLOW GLOW !

It took me about two hours to create this little creature!
I can do hundreds, thousands or more to support my war!


Martin "Mason" Merz
www.masonicons.de

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe . . .
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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Just popping in
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Quote:
why should the icons glow at all? Do they start burning when you select them or what? Where did the metaphor come from?


I think it surfaced when the Workbench allowed for the frames to be removed. There was a need to indicate a selected icons, besides changing its appearance.

I like the glow, i even have it on my windows: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1C9K-k0vmbI ... XEA/s1600/twitterdone.png

Maintainer and developer for Jamiga2 - Java for Amiga
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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Just popping in
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Resized Image
I do have great respect for your artwork, and I know the claim for perfection as a part of me is an artist as well.

But let me put it this way:

Take 10 random people from the street and show them 1) vs. 2).
probably 8 will not notice any difference. One will notice a difference and will find them equally beautiful. And one, maybe, will like 1) better if you explain at what detail he has to look at.

I am not saying that 2) is better than 1). Of course is 1) better, but is this

a) worth the time
b) worth 2x memory requirements and loading time
c) worth to hardcode the glow effect and loosing the posibility to configure

BTW, I like the glow effect. But 99% of the time icons are displayed in the normal state. So glow yes, but does it need to be that highly optimized?

BTW2: If you like perfection, I noticed that your glow effect does not take into account that the Shadow ist actually behind the glow. Look at the bottom of the icon, you see the shadow darkening the glow. My implementation in Imageconverter takes this into account give me the PNG with alpha channel, and I can show you what I mean.
Also, it would be nice if the glow "overglows", means goes over 100% when close to the icon outline and gets from yellow to white. The OS3.9 icons do that, IIRC.
Another nice feature in my implementation is that the glow also affects the inside of the outline a little bit. That adds a lot more lifelyness and "heat" to the glow, similar to what the what the glow on the arrow does in 1).


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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Quite a regular
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I love Mason's icons and don't find them 'Cheesy' at all.

In fact I wish it was possible to just press one button and Masonify ever single icon aka bringing about an easy way to change between 'icon sets'.

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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Quite a regular
Quite a regular


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...you mean a Masonifier?

X1000|II/G4|440ep|2000/060|2000/040|1000
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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Illusionist
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Hi Spot,

first of all sorry that I am a little behind with my answers. Please don't feel excluded!

Quote:

spotUP wrote:
Mason it would work just perfectly if the whole cheesy glow thing was dumped.

IMHO the glow effect is an emblem of Amiga as the Boing Ball, the Workbench and therefore we should keep him.

Quote:

If the glow is to be kept, i'd make it less yellow and way more discrete.

As you might expect, I also received complaints that the glow effect has to be more extensive.

Quote:

As it is now it looks very unrealistic.
Why would a drawer glow anyway?

Counter question: Why should a drawer or folder darken, like on other operating systems. Or why should something get bigger when a pointer moves over?
I would say it is an artists expression...

... and yes, I for sure know "something" that is getting bigger when "something" is moved over, but then usually no pointer, but woman in involved.
Ok, I go and wash my mouth ;)

Quote:

The icons looks nice apart from this imo.

Dump the glow and just change the color intensity a bit in stage two.

These are just my opinions, not meant to offend. You're doing a nice job on the icons!

Thanks! No harm taken! I respect everybody's opinion and take them into account. But based on the feedback I received so far it looks like people prefer the glowing as it is.

Martin "Mason" Merz
www.masonicons.de

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe . . .
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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Illusionist
Illusionist


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Quote:

Wanderer wrote:
I do have great respect for your artwork, and I know the claim for perfection as a part of me is an artist as well.

You're welcome!

Quote:

But let me put it this way:

Take 10 random people from the street and show them 1) vs. 2).
probably 8 will not notice any difference. One will notice a difference and will find them equally beautiful. And one, maybe, will like 1) better if you explain at what detail he has to look at.

I even expect that maybe 9 of 10 people will not notice a difference a first glance. But when several icons are selected 9 of 10 people will recognise that "something" is wrong. IIRC this is in some kind based on the interaction of the equilibrium sense and the eye. That does not mean we will all fall from the chair if the glow effect is wrong, but your senses will at least recognise it.

Quote:

I am not saying that 2) is better than 1). Of course is 1) better, but is this

a) worth the time
b) worth 2x memory requirements and loading time
c) worth to hardcode the glow effect and loosing the posibility to configure

a) Adding the glow effect is the same effort as adding a drop shadow. Therefore time should not ne an issue as it is usually done in a view seconds.
b) Counter question: Is it worth to generate an effect on the fly with much more CPU or GPU usage and therefore energy consumption than just displaying an image? Anyway, in times of Gigabyte and Terabyte this shouldn't be an valid issue.
c) Again a counter question: Is it worth to have a more configurable system when the quality of the result is worse than before? I think not!

Quote:

BTW, I like the glow effect. But 99% of the time icons are displayed in the normal state. So glow yes, but does it need to be that highly optimized?

I at least think so! ;)

Quote:

BTW2: If you like perfection, I noticed that your glow effect does not take into account that the Shadow ist actually behind the glow. Look at the bottom of the icon, you see the shadow darkening the glow. My implementation in Imageconverter takes this into account give me the PNG with alpha channel, and I can show you what I mean.

I understand what you mean!
From a physical point of view the shadow should get wider based on the new lightning source.
From an artists point it looks not good...

Quote:

Also, it would be nice if the glow "overglows", means goes over 100% when close to the icon outline and gets from yellow to white. The OS3.9 icons do that, IIRC.
Another nice feature in my implementation is that the glow also affects the inside of the outline a little bit. That adds a lot more lifelyness and "heat" to the glow, similar to what the what the glow on the arrow does in 1).

Here we are! This is exactly the contrary opinion than Spots. As the actual effect is more or less just between both suggestions it is absolutely perfect... ;)

Martin "Mason" Merz
www.masonicons.de

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe . . .
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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Illusionist
Illusionist


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Quote:

djrikki wrote:
I love Mason's icons and don't find them 'Cheesy' at all.

In fact I wish it was possible to just press one button and Masonify ever single icon aka bringing about an easy way to change between 'icon sets'.


It is not that easy for sure, because it is not that simple to replace an icon as it also contents the tooltype information. Ken sent me a script for the replacement of the icons but there was some little issue (I can't remember what exactly it was) that unfortunately hold me from using it.

Martin "Mason" Merz
www.masonicons.de

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe . . .
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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Supreme Council
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The OpenAmiga specification has been updated to allow:
- Using post effects on the base image (such as glow)
- Using the icon data as the emblem while using a default image as the base icon.
- Having global preference settings for post effects (like glow).

Example of use:
- An application icon just contains an emplen representing the application, while using a system default icon as background image. Replace the default image and it will be reflected system wide without having to update the application icon file. (Instant, global theming)

- A preference program can define the rendering method for selected icons. (Shadow, glow etc) and any icon not specifying the method will be rendered using the global method.

Note that the openamiga specification does not call for a new icon format. It's just a few new tool type directives and a new way to render them.

Vacca foeda. Sum, ergo edo

Mr Bobo Cornwater
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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Just popping in
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You see, this is one of the major problem's in Amiga-land as I see it; people are willing to put up with less-than-perfect/shoddy looking work.

If Mason wants to spend his time perfecting every icon then I can see nothing but gains for the people who will see and use them! His dedication to attention to detail is benefitting everyone. What does it matter to other people if all he wants to do is make sure something looks as good as possible? It's his time and his energy!

Spit and polish, and great attention to detail, go a long way in making your product stand out from the crowd. That's what AmigaOS needs.

For example, take a look at A-EON's website (I don't mean to single this out, it just popped into my head as a typical example), and ask yourself the question "Do I think that looks good?". I will wager that most people in Amiga-land will say "Hell, yeah, that's great" when really, the answer should be, "God damn, that is one horrible looking website, straight out of 1995, change it PLEASE!".

Oh, and don't get me started on the abomination that is the 'ReAction' GUI toolkit; Mason's icons are the single most beautiful thing about AmigaOS 4 at the minute and he's making them BETTER.

In closing, I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, and that's fine, this is only my opinion, but lay off telling the guy what he should and shouldn't be spending his spare time doing, especially when it benefits us all.

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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Supreme Council
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@Slash

There's nothing wrong with mason's work.

Holding back stuff like global settings for selected image effects and icon emblems just to satisfy his need for perfection however is as wrong as it can be.

Streamlining theming and reducing the work needed to create icon themes will benefit the platform. Holding back stuff like this will not.

(NOTE: The openamiga specification allows for both system defaults and hard coded images)

Vacca foeda. Sum, ergo edo

Mr Bobo Cornwater
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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Just popping in
Just popping in


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Quote:

orgin wrote:
@Slash

There's nothing wrong with mason's work.

Holding back stuff like global settings for selected image effects and icon emblems just to satisfy his need for perfection however is as wrong as it can be.

Streamlining theming and reducing the work needed to create icon themes will benefit the platform. Holding back stuff like this will not.

(NOTE: The openamiga specification allows for both system defaults and hard coded images)


Yeah, I see no problem with having global settings to apply these things if need be, I mean, why wouldn't you? Can't we have both? I think the global settings and icon emblems would be a great idea too.

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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Just popping in
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I think everybody apreciates Masons artwork. What we are discussing here is on a technical level how to make the most use out of it.

From a programmers point of view, any effect that is pure post processing without manual interference should be left out. This are e.g. the guidelines for Android and iOS icons, so the OS can decide if a shine effect is added or not. On iOS, even the entire shape (the round corners) is procedural.

And the problem here is, does the manual pampered glow effect outweight the posibilities that arise if the Glow wasnt hardcoded/rendered.

EDIT: and my 2,5 cents about the example mason posted is, that I find it way more imperfect if the shadow is cast on top of the glow (ever seen a shadow on a flame?) that the arrow not having its own, adjusted glow.

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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Illusionist
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Quote:

orgin wrote:
@Slash

There's nothing wrong with mason's work.

Holding back stuff like global settings for selected image effects and icon emblems just to satisfy his need for perfection however is as wrong as it can be.

Streamlining theming and reducing the work needed to create icon themes will benefit the platform. Holding back stuff like this will not.


Sounds to me like "Ok, the icons look bad now, but we have a great system running in the background to generate them."

Maybe I am overestimating the influence of the icons to the overall look and feel of AmigaOS4, but imho this attempt would definitely be a step backward.

Martin "Mason" Merz
www.masonicons.de

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe . . .
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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Home away from home
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In my opinion the Mason artworks and his icons are fantastic as is, they are clean and painted in a very professional way.

Maybe just maybe only some AISS buttons can't be redesigned a bit better (for example the left/right arrows we can see in Reaction OWB) but apart that i'm very satisfied

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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Supreme Council
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@Mason

And you sound like a obstinate graphics fanatic that want to keep a monopoly for his own personal reasons at all costs even if it means keeping an archaic system that at best belongs in the 1990's.

I'm sorry if that offends you, but what you just wrote read out just like that. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase?

Vacca foeda. Sum, ergo edo

Mr Bobo Cornwater
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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Illusionist
Illusionist


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Quote:

Wanderer wrote:

From a programmers point of view, any effect that is pure post processing without manual interference should be left out. This are e.g. the guidelines for Android and iOS icons, so the OS can decide if a shine effect is added or not. On iOS, even the entire shape (the round corners) is procedural.


I checked my Android devices and none of them seems to have such a feature for icons. Also the UI style guide don't describe such a feature, but maybe I just missed it: Link

I did the icons for some iOS apps and have to say that the emblem icon attempt is in no way comparable to the generic buttons of iOS. It is a quite different attempt as a button frame is given to provide an universal look of the icons, while the images itself is not really involved.

BTW For me something like this would better fit for AmigaOS!

Martin "Mason" Merz
www.masonicons.de

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe . . .
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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Home away from home
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@thread
Crikey is must be a slow day in amigaland!

Can we get some reality in here please? This thread is starting to anoy me!

Mason is hold nothing back technically by his artistic leanings. .

Hi icon artwork is great IMHO but you do not have to use it. There are other icon artists making alternate amigaos specific sets, glow or non glow. there are other sets out on the internet you could use if you wanted.


Technical status quo as I se it. (AmigaOS 4 and up)

Icons support 32bit images as well as penmap.

Icon support alpha channels.

Icons support an alternate image, but it is not required.

Icon support a range of procedural effects to indicate the selected state, options are (apologies if any of these are beta but I don't think they are)

Darken
Brighten
Negative
Impose Colour (ie tint the icon with a colour)
Rotate RGB

However if the icon has an alternate image that is autmatically prefered at the moment. (Perhaps an oportunity for an for an option here.)

def icons and dragged icons may be rendered with transparency.

Icons may be scaled with minimum an maximum sizes imposed.

--

There is more to a select image than simple glow, even if no glow is applied, some action is usually displayed, a note book opens, a light bulb switches on, a switch toggles, all this adds to the feed back and feel for what type of operation the icon represents.

Arguments against dusl image icons include,

1. cheezy - a matter of taste I'm sure, but the modern version of te glow is quite subtle, and more generalise alternate images can be atasteful or not as the artist likes.

2. Saves disk space - get real, icons rarelt take up more than a few k and would struggle to overload a floppy let alone at 500Gb disk.

3. Saves memory, really not very much memory is used by icons, and modern systems have a lot more than we used to have.

4. Load times, whilst loading two images is presumably slower, I doubt is as much slower than the def icons / datatypes fikle scan which makes the saving pointless (premature optimisation is the buzzword I believe) and again on modern AmigaOS systems opening a drawer of a 1000 photos takes only a few seconds.

5. Waste of artist time. Hum, an artists time is never wasted if he is creating art. But ieven less so if his art is adding a greater depth of clarity and subtlety.

I think I could keep ranting for a while longer but I want to get back to coding the selection tools for sketchblock2.2 ...

.. so please remember amigaos is configurable, you don't like the icons? Replace them....



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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Just can't stay away
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@thread

Surprisingly, no one has so far mentioned an aspect that I consider extremely important for this discussion.

We must ensure coherence and continuity in the AmigaOS icon system. Perfect as Mason's work undoubtedly is, the current icon system is greatly dependent on one person's skills, time and dedication. This cannot be: should something unexpectable happen in Mason's life (God forbid!), we need to be sure that another artist can easily stand for him and do the work. But this just isn't possible if Mason insists on the glow effect being added manually by him. Instead, we need a system that takes the artist's work (the icon images) and adds the rest (the effects: glow, whatever...) algorithmically. This is the only way, really.

@Mason
Please don't take the wrong idea. The discussion is not about your icons, they are truly great. It's about making the icon system more future-proof, artist-independent, consistent, and less time-consuming.

The Rear Window blog

AmigaOne X5000 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
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Re: About Icons, automated Effects and why it will never work
Illusionist
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Quote:

orgin wrote:
@Mason

And you sound like a obstinate graphics fanatic that want to keep a monopoly for his own personal reasons at all costs even if it means keeping an archaic system that at best belongs in the 1990's.

I'm sorry if that offends you, but what you just wrote read out just like that. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase?


Sorry, but I won't tolerate that kind of insults neither from you or anybody else! I tried to share my doubts and discuss them in a civilised way, but it might be better to stop my engagement in this topic here at that point.


Martin "Mason" Merz
www.masonicons.de

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe . . .
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