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Running my OS4 games on QEmu
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Hi!

I imagined some people might have been interested if my recent and ongoing game ports (Heretic2, Sin, Quake2) will run on QEmu.

I can now confirm that they do (well, didn't test Quake2, but don't expect further issues there).

My testing system was a i7-8750h at 2.2 GHz with a nVidia 2060 Notebook Graphics Board.

QEmu was configured to use Peg2 and is using OS4.1FE.

Heretic2: The game runs fine and playable at 640x480. Higher resolutions are too slow to be playable (somehow the fps drops a lot between 640x480 and 800x600). It runs at 21 fps in 640x480. This is half the speed the software renderer runs on a physical x1000.

Sin: The game runs faster than Heretic 2. At around 30 fps in 640x480. Note this is a Alpha Version of the software renderer I used which is currently 8 Bit but to get the colors right the final version needs to be 16 Bit which will probably cause some slowdown.

I *am* of course interested in what that "virtual Driver" Hans de Ruiter is currently developing might reach here.

Some comparision Data:

Heretic 2 on x1000 Software-renderer: 42 fps (108 fps in 3D HW)
Sin on x1000. Heretic2 68k (yes, different binary, so comparing apples with oranges ) on PiStorm 4: 21 fps
Sin on x1000 Software renderer: 50 fps (134 fps in 3D HW)

Installation runs much faster on QEmu, loading a level also runs a bit faster on QEmu (but is not that bad on a physical Amiga either).

There is still some trouble with the video player on my QEmu system (which doesn't happen on a physical Amiga) but it might be due to my QEmu setup (investigating).

For me it would be interesting if QEmu users actually are interested in buying Amiga ports of games which are already available on their native PC platform.

Best regards,
Steffen

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Re: Running my OS4 games on QEmu
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@TheMagicSN

I'm very glad that you have taken an interest in people using Qemu.
I think that your ports can be an interesting alternative for people who need to use various emulations even unrelated to AOS4 to run older games.
If I will have AOS4 on Qemu and it is possible to run the new port (new ports are always more polished) why I would not have to try it

For example, I'll tell you for Christmas I want to play Tomb Raider 1. I have a Playstation and waiting for me for a long time bought Horizon Forbidden West (the one was great!!) but somehow the word "3dfx" on me like a thunderbolt ;-D
Horizon will wait. The same may be true for your ports.

If you need any help/testing on Qemu let me know. I don't mean after the whole program - a fragment or something to test. My knowledge is not too much but I'm happy to help.
I come from an open source environment - if the time devoted to it can give me joy, it will be a great honor for me if I can help others.

Best regards and good luck with further work.

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Re: Running my OS4 games on QEmu
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@TheMagicSN

Hello Steffen,

first of all, thank you for this information. I didn't know that their game ports also offer a software renderer and so I never ran 3D games like yours on Qemu with AmigaOs4.1.

The only games I currently use on AmigaOs4.1 are Quake and DukeNukem and those games run really impressively well.

Quake currently runs on my computer at 1280x720 16 bit and 30 FPS. I provided you with an older video:





This video is a bit older and FPS numbers over 30 FPS are already possible under Quake.

If your games can of course also be used under Qemu AmigaOs4.1 without any effort, that would be a great thing for me personally. I've never played "Sin" before, but the trailer I saw is promising and I would have liked to play something like it on AmigaOs4.1. It's exactly the same with Quake 2. However, I would quickly lose the joy of gaming at a resolution of 640x480.

So I still hope that Hans de Ruiter will provide a Virtio 3D driver for Qemu, with such a driver it would probably become really interesting.

Their games ports can be purchased digitally. ?


Edited by Maijestro on 2023/11/11 14:16:45
Edited by Maijestro on 2023/11/11 14:21:04
Edited by Maijestro on 2023/11/11 14:26:40
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Re: Running my OS4 games on QEmu
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@smarkusg:

If it runs, why should i not check it out And as they do run I wanted people know that they run. If some more games will be sold by QEmu users - good for me.

As you offered QEmu knowledge I already have one question - is it possible to "enlarge" an img file to have more harddrive space ? or can i mount two images instead of just one, for more partitions ? Thanks in advance.

Another thing i am wondering - I am using a Peg2 Install here. I heard there are also Sam installs. Does this matter (speed-wise) ? Or does it not matter at all?

@Maijestro:

As to Hyperion games some offer a software renderer, some not. Well actually right now nearly all offer a software renderer (I think Shogo might be hardware renderer only but i am not 100% sure on it, that's a Hyperion game where I - except for the very early phases of the project - was not involved. Sin currently doesn't have a ("really usable" at least) software renderer, but the plan is to fix this software renderer before the release of the game so that it is usable (current version is in 8 Bit, and 8 Bit gives ugly colors - so ugly I say it is not usable, final version will be using 16 Bit also in software rendering).

Some future games might be limited to 3D Hardware, but we will go above that bridge when it comes.

Note that for some games (like Heretic2) the hardware renderer looks much better than the software renderer. But it still looks fine in software rendering. And for Sin - once that colorbug is fixed I expect it to look the same like the 3D Hardware renderer.

As to Quake which you mentioned this is of course a much older engine than Heretic2 and Sin (which are based on the Quake 2 engine, though the engine in both cases is heavily modified, especially with H2). So basically Quake is one generation older.

Sin is for the Amiga not yet released (an announcement of the port was not even done yet but will probably soon come). Betatest started only very recently (as in very VERY recently).

and yeah, I absolutely agree that 640x480 is a bit low. Well, Sin maybe might run on 800x600 still. For anything higher (at least on QEmu) either an i9 would be needed or Hans' new Driver which hopefully should improve things drastically.

For H2 under QEmu 800x600 at decent speed (unless i9 ^^) is impossible (on my x1000 I can run the game in 1920x1024 and it is still smooth - obviously in 3D Hardware, though it is also playable on software rendering on larger resolutions - but on physical Amiga hardware people have 3d acceleration anyways, so nobody will use software rendering there - though the software renderer is included).

I just tried to run a timedemo on my x1000 using 1024x768 - still gave 22 fps in software rendering (obviously much higher in 3D Hardware, around 100 fps or somesuch).

And yeah, I will watch the stuff about Hans' new driver closely (and get a copy myselves probably). This should improve things. Actually at my normal job (I do not do Amiga stuff fulltime anymore) some people in my team became interested "about that game you port", and I will show them the game (and the OS) soon, using QEmu (don't want to transport my x1000 with the S-Bahn to the office).

As to the game ports, some older games (like Shogo and Gorky17) can be acquired digitally. Heretic2 and Sin will be a physical sale version (actually many at the start of the project asked me to do so - "a big cardboard box like back then" - actually the design of the new H2 cardboard box looks phantastic )) )

Personally I think the days of the of the internal Amiga system wars is over. I am trying to support a range of systems, among them of course (still my favorites ) physical PowerPC-equipped Amigas, QEmu, and several 68k systems (I already could show that my - still Alpha version - H2 68k compile runs at playable speed on PiStorm (though also at 640x480, maybe 800x600 maximum). I stil want to try to get something running for the Apollo Vampire too.

MagicSN

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Re: Running my OS4 games on QEmu
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@TheMagicSNQuote:
TheMagicSN wrote:@smarkusg:

If it runs, why should i not check it out And as they do run I wanted people know that they run. If some more games will be sold by QEmu users - good for me.

As you offered QEmu knowledge I already have one question - is it possible to "enlarge" an img file to have more harddrive space ? or can i mount two images instead of just one, for more partitions ? Thanks in advance.

Another thing i am wondering - I am using a Peg2 Install here. I heard there are also Sam installs. Does this matter (speed-wise) ? Or does it not matter at all?


It is possible to use a second drive with Qemu without any problems. Just add:

-drive if=none,id=hd1,file=/Path/To/hd.img,format=raw -device ide-hd,drive=hd1,bus=ide.1


It should also be possible to enlarge the existing IMG, but it could destroy the content. You should create a backup beforehand.

qemu-img resize vm-image.img +25GB


It is also possible to use a real hard drive with Qemu, I took this step. I'm currently using a 500 GB SSD set up under AmigaOs4.1. Due to the setup (file system) and formatting under AmigaOs4.1, this hard drive is no longer available to my main system and is no longer recognized. Only Qemu with AmigaOs4.1 can still use this hard drive.

You currently get the best experience under Qemu with the Pegasos2 machine, with Qemu 8.2 the AmigaOneXE machine will also be available, but it currently has a few problems with USB support. The Sam460 machine is currently the slowest of all, but that is also being worked on.

I agree with you that we should support every system running AmigaOs4.1 if possible. In order to be able to increase the user base if possible. Exactly the same with AmigaOs3.x 68k. I find their behavior exemplary for others.

There was already a lot of support here in this forum when I registered almost a year ago and we started with the topic of Qemu AmigaOs4.1. Back then, SDL2 didn't have a working software renderer like it does today, meaning many ports could also run on Qemu.

Qemu users with AmigaOs4.1 have also already carried out ports (PT2 clones) that can be used under AmigaOs4.1 with real and emulated hardware. Even though they don't have any real hardware.

If they sell their ports in a nice cardboard box, how is it possible for users to use their games without a CD/DVD drive?

If you have any questions about Qemu, I would perhaps ask you the thread:

https://www.amigans.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8698

to use so that we don't stray from the actual topic


Edited by Maijestro on 2023/11/11 18:09:49
Edited by Maijestro on 2023/11/11 18:14:09
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Re: Running my OS4 games on QEmu
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@TheMagicSNQuote:
TheMagicSN wrote:@smarkusg:
I just tried to run a timedemo on my x1000 using 1024x768 - still gave 22 fps in software rendering (obviously much higher in 3D Hardware, around 100 fps or somesuch).


I almost overlooked that, which could mean that even in software rendering "Sin" "Quake2" at least 800x600 16 bit 30 FPS would be possible. (Hardware dependent) If that's the case I will definitely buy these games, if Qemu gets 3D acceleration I won't even have to think about buying it

Thank you for your support.

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Re: Running my OS4 games on QEmu
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@TheMagicSN

Quote:
As you offered QEmu knowledge I already have one question - is it possible to "enlarge" an img file to have more harddrive space ? or can i mount two images instead of just one, for more partitions ? Thanks in advance.


I think your questions have already been answered by @Maijestro.
We will add only disk enlargement I would do manually. Definitely before all the fun backup the current disk. Made a new larger disk, I would transfer the data from disk to disk by booting the system at system startup from cdrom.
Pegasos will boot from the new disk for sure. I recently played with JXFS as the main disk out of curiosity . From bboot it boots without any problem like a system partition but only as "ro" - this is only what AOS4.1 FE allows. This topic is obviously not related to what you asked - I gave as an example.
If you have the opportunity I would compile QEMU option "lto -O3" and preferably under clang not gcc. It is possible that you will then get better results in benchamrk and comfort of work.

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Re: Running my OS4 games on QEmu
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Hi!

Thanks for your answers, especially on the HD Size issue. Note using a physical harddrive is not an option for me as I run this on a Notebook, cannot add another harddrive there.

Replying to the mails from both of you here:

>ou currently get the best experience under Qemu with the Pegasos2 >machine, with Qemu 8.2 the AmigaOneXE machine will also be

Ok, then it seems to be good that I chose to use the Peg2 machine for QEmu

>I agree with you that we should support every system running >AmigaOs4.1 if possible. In order to be able to increase the user

Yes, absolutely agreed here. I am even trying to supporting some machines with OS3.2 as well (though this will be not possible for all machines running OS3.2).

>I almost overlooked that, which could mean that even in software >rendering "Sin" "Quake2" at least 800x600 16 bit 30 FPS would be

Remember the 1024x768 22 fps number was on a physical x1000 - not QEmu. QEmu is only around half-speed of the x1000 (QEmu on i7, on i9 maybe a different thing). And yes, if QEmu gets 3D Acceleration this will be a different thing. But right now - Sin in 8 Bit renderer is 25-30 fps in 640x480 on QEmu. So definitely no 30 fps in 1024x768.

>If you have the opportunity I would compile QEMU option "lto ->O3" and preferably under clang not gcc. It is possible that you >will then get better results in benchamrk and comfort of work.

Did not compile it myselves, used a downloadable binary. Is a binary for Windows with these changes available somewhere ?

Best regards,
MagicSN

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Re: Running my OS4 games on QEmu
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@TheMagicSNQuote:
TheMagicSN wrote:Hi!
>I almost overlooked that, which could mean that even in software >rendering "Sin" "Quake2" at least 800x600 16 bit 30 FPS would be

Remember the 1024x768 22 fps number was on a physical x1000 - not QEmu. QEmu is only around half-speed of the x1000 (QEmu on i7, on i9 maybe a different thing). And yes, if QEmu gets 3D Acceleration this will be a different thing. But right now - Sin in 8 Bit renderer is 25-30 fps in 640x480 on QEmu. So definitely no 30 fps in 1024x768.


Could you please run a test on your x1000 with Quake Timedemo software rendering? In this way you could roughly determine the value of how it could run emulated under Qemu with current hardware and its game ports.

You shouldn't rely on the Intel i9, we've already had a few benchmark tests where the Mac hardware (arm) achieved the best results, followed by AMD Ryzen under Qemu.

The average user will probably use hardware i7, but will surely upgrade in about 2-3 years.

MacStudio ARM M1 Max Qemu/AmigaOs4.1FE/Pegasos2
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Re: Running my OS4 games on QEmu
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@Maijestro

I agree with the current state.
It is assumed that with a graphics driver the disparity between processors will be made less demanding in the future.
Unfortunately, we will have to wait to make good use of AmigaOS 4.1 on the graphics side.

But I will definitely be one of the first to buy it if put on sale on the A-EON store.

Currently emulating with qemu "morphos" with the "ATI" the videos with OWB are very smooth even the video players and the E-UAE itself is very fast.
They can all be used together without the slightest slowdown.
Too bad only about the audio
it's obviously the "license" but that's an old story.

I just hope I don't get too old in the meantime.
I'm already starting to get very lazy now.

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Re: Running my OS4 games on QEmu
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>Could you please run a test on your x1000 with Quake Timedemo >software rendering? In this way you could roughly determine the >value of how it could run emulated under Qemu with current >hardware and its game ports.

With "Quake" you mean Quake 1 or Quake 2 ? I currently only have Quake 2 installed, but could install Quake 1 of course (For either I first need to set up a new imagefile, as the one I use is basically full with H2 and Sin installed). Personally I expect that speed of Quake 2 will be pretty similar to speed of Sin. Which would be right now 30 fps on 640x480 in software rendering on QEmu.

>You shouldn't rely on the Intel i9, we've already had a few >benchmark tests where the Mac hardware (arm) achieved the best >results, followed by AMD Ryzen under Qemu.

I am definitely not relying on i9 (I don't have a i9 myselves even and probably won't have for a long time). It was just a comment on the expected performance.

It is not a matter of "relaying", it is a matter of what is possible with current speed of running stuff like H2 on QEmu.

>The average user will probably use hardware i7, but will surely >upgrade in about 2-3 years.

Agreed.

@White:

>Currently emulating with qemu "morphos" with the "ATI" the >videos with OWB are very smooth even the video players and the >E-UAE itself is very fast.

Video replay is fine with H2, that is not the problem. The problem I mentioned about video replay on QEmu is that the mplayer port H2 uses crashes on QEmu with the -fs switch (which is what I am using). I already submitted a bugreport (for a game's video replay I need fullscreen). Weirdly this bug only happens under QEmu, not on native AmigaOS.

The speed problem is not related to video replay, it is related to actual game.

MagicSN

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Re: Running my OS4 games on QEmu
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Hi!

Okay, I got an explanation on the video mode. The mplayer port H2 uses uses SDL1, and the mplayer port used in H2 uses SDL1 (the game itselves doesn't). It has some other options for video replay, but none of the other options offers fullscreen.

So the current alternatives on running H2 (and potentially Sin later) on QEmu with working video/intro are:

- Running not with the Peg2 version (I was told the issue does not happen if you emulate a Sam or AmigaOneXE)
- running with -cpu G3 (this makes the game run 17% slower at only 18 fps which then is not really an alternative
- copying some other mplayer from os4depot on top after installation (sadly the ones I tried decode the format the H2 movies use incorrectly and look visually bad - I used this format on purpose as it is the fastest one to replay on slower Amigas like Sam440). Of course you could convert the videos manually to a format these other mplayer ports can handle.
- disabling videos

This explains also why a tester who uses QEmu with Sam version did not have the issue

MagicSN

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Re: Running my OS4 games on QEmu
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@TheMagicSNQuote:
TheMagicSN

It is not a matter of "relaying", it is a matter of what is possible with current speed of running stuff like H2 on QEmu.


I think it's really great that they also want to support Qemu with AmigaOs4.1 and make their games available for it.

But at the moment that doesn't make much sense to me, we know that Hans de Ruiter is working on a Virtio driver and if this driver is ever released, the first version could include 32bit support I'm pretty sure and they would have to start again to make their game ports compatible close.

The first version of the driver certainly won't offer 3D acceleration, but 2D acceleration/compositing might be available.

If I were you I would wait a bit until this driver is released and then reassess the situation, we don't know what impact this driver will have for Qemu and AmigaOs4.1.

Then the problem would still have to be solved: how to install Quake2/Sin/Heretic2 on a computer without a CD/DVD drive (MacStudio) if there are no digital versions. Not everyone will have these problems, but it will be my problem

I played Quake2 myself many years ago on an AmigaOneXe, if the result is similar under Qemu AmigaOs4.1, I would buy it again, exactly the same for Sin, I don't know this game and have never played it, but that's what I've seen I might like it.

Regarding your Mplayer problem:

I just wanted to say that MPlayer is currently being worked on and sooner or later there won't be any more problems with it.


Edited by Maijestro on 2023/11/12 14:55:18
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Re: Running my OS4 games on QEmu
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@Maijestro

32bit is 2x data, If the transfer speed is important for high FPS. Then it makes sense to use 16bit.

Specially if for software rendering, there are other issues like BE and LE, but lookup tables work fine for 16bit (and 15bit), the R and B is easy to shift, but G is the one that’s split in the wrong endian, on 16bit

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Re: Running my OS4 games on QEmu
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>But at the moment that doesn't make much sense to me, we know that >Hans de Ruiter is working on a Virtio driver and if this driver is >ever released, the first version could include 32bit support I'm >pretty sure and they would have to start again to make their game >ports compatible close.

I am not doing anything to change the games for QEmu right now ;) It is just the unmodified OS4 version I am doing anyways ,-)))

So the "Wait a while" comment does not make much sense to me. All I am doing is testing the already existing version on QEmu

This will be no "separate release for QEmu". Just finding out if it runs on QEmu.


>Then the problem would still have to be solved: how to install >Quake2/Sin/Heretic2 on a computer without a CD/DVD drive
>(MacStudio) if there are no digital versions. Not everyone will >have these problems, but it will be my problem

I assume the system on which QEmu runs will have a CD Drive ? It is easily possible to mount an ISO with OS4.

>I have a few test builds that contain fixes so that the SDL >video output also works properly under Pegasos2 emulation. I >just wanted to say that MPlayer is currently being worked on and >sooner or later there won't be any more problems with it.

I am in contact with the people doing the updated mplayer (assuming you refer to the port by Javier etc.).

And yes, I assumed the Peg2 sdl1 problem will eventually get fixed.

BTW I found out something interesting still:

When I before playing switch the video mode (I assume some weird interaction with video drivers ?) Sin runs much faster on QEmu (the effect happens only on QEmu, not on a physical Amiga).

Now I got 40 fps on 640x480 and 23 fps on 1024x768 with Sin.

(On H2 the effect also exists, but much smaller - it was this effect why I thought -cpu g3 is much slower while in fact it is around the same). In H2 it is 18 fps vs. 20-21 fps.

Weirdly I sometimes even have the faster speed when starting directly. Some Emulation weirdness I guess (it is not only the numbers, the game runs visibly faster when it happens - it is really playable in 1024x768 now).

MagicSN

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Re: Running my OS4 games on QEmu
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@TheMagicSN

Shogo support both MiniGL and sofware rendered mode, but it lacks gl4es (as it wasn't availible at release time)

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@TheMagicSN

Quote:
Did not compile it myselves, used a downloadable binary. Is a binary for Windows with these changes available somewhere ?

I do not use windows. I am not able to tell you where it can be accessed

Quote:
Okay, I got an explanation on the video mode. The mplayer port H2 uses uses SDL1, and the mplayer port used in H2 uses SDL1 (the game itselves doesn't). It has some other options for video replay, but none of the other options offers fullscreen.

If you have the option use ffplay. It should solve the problem Qemu pegasos 2 G4 - is ns SDL2 and is based on ffmpeg.
It should work on any Amiga.

@Maijestro
Quote:
If I were you I would wait a bit until this driver is released and then reassess the situation, we don't know what impact this driver will have for Qemu and AmigaOs4.1

Not everyone will buy it. It is better to make the game work on any hardware and not make it dependent on the driver. As @TheMagicSN wrote - it even works acrually on Qemu already.

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Yeah, I sent Frank some info already how to do a gl4es renderer (from my experience with H2, Q2 and Sin).

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Re: Running my OS4 games on QEmu
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@TheMagicSN

I know and i'm still waiting for, even because the game still also refuse to work on my AmigaOne G3 :-/

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Re: Running my OS4 games on QEmu
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@TheMagicSNQuote:


I am not doing anything to change the games for QEmu right now ;) It is just the unmodified OS4 version I am doing anyways ,-)))

So the "Wait a while" comment does not make much sense to me. All I am doing is testing the already existing version on QEmu

This will be no "separate release for QEmu". Just finding out if it runs on QEmu.


Ok, if you don't have to do anything extra to make your game ports available to everyone who can use AmigaOs4.1 in some way, it's of course a good thing.

A MacStudio/MacMini (ARM) does not have a DVD/CD-ROM drive. It's like with the new XboxOne series X you can decide for it or against it.
You can see in my signature which hardware I use in conjunction with Qemu and AmigaOs4.1. But that will be the least of my problems since I still have an external CD/DVD drive lying around that I could connect to my Mac.

So the only problem that remains at the moment is playing the video sequences...

Maybe as @smarkusg wrote you could perhaps link to ffplay, or another media player. DvPlayer, Emotion work very well with Qemu/Pegasos2.

Is MPlayer installed when you install your games?

Then you could simply replace it later with a version that causes fewer problems. The option to deactivate the cutscenes would also be an option, but that would certainly lose some of the fun. Does it only affect the intro video sequences or all other in-game sequences too?

When will you release your game ports for AmigaOs4.1?

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