I just tried to use Audio Evolution 4 for some recording and multi-track editing. So far: - Can't load most sample files: *.wav files fail, as do 8svx (including ones bundled with AmigaOS 4) - Recording doesn't work (workaround: use AHIRecord) - Can't figure out how to boost audio levels; only reducing volume (workaround: use Rave) - The line indicating the current point of playback quickly gets out of sync with the visual display. It looks like it keeps playing beyond the end of the waveform
That last one makes it hard to use for editing. Is there a way to get it to behave correctly?
Or, is there a viable alternative? I'm not doing anything fancy; just recording some samples, looping a few, and mixing multiple tracks together.
AudioEvolution's primary sample format is 16-bit AIFF. It won't let you import 24-bit WAV samples, and will mangle 24-bit AIFF into distorted noise. For 16-bit WAVs the program will at least allow you to import and convert the samples to AIFF at load-time.
Unfortunately, AudioEvolution is old now and could use some update. Too bad Davy didn't make it to open-source version 4 (AFAIK)!
Thanks. I've figured out how to get usable samples in. It's the playback line not matching up with the waveform that makes it almost unusable. If I could get that working correctly, then it should be good enough to get the job done.
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Unfortunately, AudioEvolution is old now and could use some update. Too bad Davy didn't make it to open-source version 4 (AFAIK)!
Very true. IIRC, Davy was considering releasing the source-code, but I don't remember seeing an actual release.
Yes, I have had significant good usage out of AE4.
Several of my Album releases were part recorded / mixed in AE4 (combined with other parts recorded in the stdio). Many of my youtube videos have audio exported from blender, processed in AE4 then reimported.
As already mentioned, sample file import is limited to 16bit AIFF (not AIFC, important distinction as some files from other sources can be AIFC with aiff file extention). and 16bit WAV (pcm only).
Recording has always worked for me. I think I needed Nemo sound to get it worling properly on my X1000 using hdaudio though, worked out of the box on my SAM-Flex with my Terrtec. If AHIRecord works AE4 should because they both use the AHI record settings. (AE4 can choose between sources though so check you're not recording from linein (often the blue socket) when you're plugged into mic in (pink)
You can only cut volume with the faders, which is philosophically correct from an audio point of view, especially when working with digital audio where clipping is critical, but there are a couple of alternatives. (I do find myself wishing that at least the master volume had a boost!)
1. Amplifier plugin - best if you need to automate a volume boost to get different boosts at different points.
2. Compressor plugin - good for boosting quiet sounds with making louder sounds too much louder
3. Normalise option from the sample list window. This can raise the max volume of a sample to 100%
I've not had an issue with the play marker getting out of sync, I've used it for near sample level adjustments to timing, you need to zoom in though, otherwise you are seeing an aproximation of the waveform. It will play just beyond the last sample in the timeline. ie To "end of song" Occasionally the "end of song" point can get confused if the length of the song gets shortened by removing samples. Unlike some more modern DAWs you can't explicitly set it.
HDRec is agood alternative especially if you need to loop samples. It doesn't play well on my X1000 though, severe timeing issues and recording is broken, whereas is works very well on my SAM-Flex.
If AHIRecord works AE4 should because they both use the AHI record settings. (AE4 can choose between sources though so check you're not recording from linein (often the blue socket) when you're plugged into mic in (pink)
I was going to ask where the controls are to change the source, but I found it in the menus. Weird place for it. I'd expect to be able to access it from the recording window... Alas, it still doesn't work for me. Setting it to the "Mic Rear" input still results in no signal, even with volume & gain all the way up.
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1. Amplifier plugin - best if you need to automate a volume boost to get different boosts at different points.
2. Compressor plugin - good for boosting quiet sounds with making louder sounds too much louder
Where can those be found?
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3. Normalise option from the sample list window. This can raise the max volume of a sample to 100%
Good to know.
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I've not had an issue with the play marker getting out of sync, I've used it for near sample level adjustments to timing, you need to zoom in though, otherwise you are seeing an aproximation of the waveform. It will play just beyond the last sample in the timeline. ie To "end of song" Occasionally the "end of song" point can get confused if the length of the song gets shortened by removing samples. Unlike some more modern DAWs you can't explicitly set it.
Perhaps it's because I'm using the hdaudio driver, which is one of the few AHI drivers without Davy's name in the author list. Getting out of sync is really bad for me. The play marker can end up way beyond the end of the sample before playback ends.
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HDRec is agood alternative especially if you need to loop samples. It doesn't play well on my X1000 though, severe timeing issues and recording is broken, whereas is works very well on my SAM-Flex.
I'll check it out. The HD-Rec website is down, but I found a beta from 2020 on aminet.
What machine are you using it on? If X1000 then Lyles Nemo sound utility is extremely benficial (allows proper realtime monitoring without lag etc).
The plugins are added as "inserts" . Each channel should have 3 "grey buttons" in a coulmnat the top. Click one to add a plugin and you will get a window to choose from.. Click again to bring the editor window for that plugin.
What machine are you using it on? If X1000 then Lyles Nemo sound utility is extremely benficial (allows proper realtime monitoring without lag etc).
An X5000.
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The plugins are added as "inserts" . Each channel should have 3 "grey buttons" in a coulmnat the top. Click one to add a plugin and you will get a window to choose from.. Click again to bring the editor window for that plugin.
Ah, okay. I thought that I'd have to download the plugins from somewhere first. This is the first time that I'm using AE4...
I tried HD-Rec, but it's basically unusable. No sound. Attempting to setup AHI results in a requester saying: "AHI Driver Bug! You enabled AHI record, but the AHI_RecFunc for the 16bit recording was never called!"
One other potential problem is that there appears to be no way for me to record audio while playing audio (e.g., record one track while listening to a previously recorded track). At least, not via two separate programs.
Just downloaded audioevolution4 and I can confirm that audioevolution is not working as expected. Yes, I can select the correct input (Don't mistake enabled sound for the correct input.) The monitor will feedback audio to the linout and hp out no matter if you have selected the correct input to the ADC. The monitor will provide sound for any valid input. (This will result in free mixing when recording from the monitor input instead of mic/line because the monitor itself will provide the hardware mixing for you)
Be aware that MIC inputs will give two channel mono. Only Linein will give real stereo.
Now for the not working part. When I attempt to record from linein in the AE4 record window, the right channel is noise and the left channel is distorted. Even with the recommended HIFI 16bit Stereo++ mode at 48kHz.
Recording works fine with AHIrecord. (Which I have used to verify the driver)
When I record a sample with AHIrecord in 16bit AIFF format then this sample plays fine with multiviewer and AmigaAmp. But when import the same sample in AE4 then the sound itself is fine but the progress cursor/line thinks that the sample is about twice as long.
I do not know what dark magic is performed in the drivers written by DW that AE4 apparently works fine with those drivers.
Why recording doesn't work within AE4 is also a complete mystery to me. Could be that there are also some hidden DW driver communications to circumvent the limitations of AHI.
Be aware that AHIrecorder isn't perfect either. The "Monitor" selection doesn't work at all. It shows the outputs instead of monitor inputs but nothing happens when you select anything in the monitor. I can't see any request being fed to the AHI driver. So maybe AHIrecord makes assumptions or relies on hidden direct driver communication as well.
Yes, I can select the correct input (Don't mistake enabled sound for the correct input.) The monitor will feedback audio to the linout and hp out no matter if you have selected the correct input to the ADC. The monitor will provide sound for any valid input. (This will result in free mixing when recording from the monitor input instead of mic/line because the monitor itself will provide the hardware mixing for you)
Not 100% sure what you are saying here, but to get correct monitoring with hdaudio on an X1000 you need Nemo Sound. There is stuff outside AHIs control that needs this custom driver / utility.
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Be aware that MIC inputs will give two channel mono. Only Linein will give real stereo.
No, if you plug in a stereo micrphone you get stereo , if you plug in mono one naturally you get momo, but two channels as that's how AHI records.
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Now for the not working part. When I attempt to record from linein in the AE4 record window, the right channel is noise and the left channel is distorted. Even with the recommended HIFI 16bit Stereo++ mode at 48kHz.
Did I mention Nemo Sound yet?
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Recording works fine with AHIrecord. (Which I have used to verify the driver)
Could be an issue with the level the record process is working at perhaps or that AHIRecord is not play simultaneously? Suggest an issue withthe driver, but hey Nemo Sound is cheap and make it all work.
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When I record a sample with AHIrecord in 16bit AIFF format then this sample plays fine with multiviewer and AmigaAmp. But when import the same sample in AE4 then the sound itself is fine but the progress cursor/line thinks that the sample is about twice as long.
Could be an error in the AIFF header. Certainly AIFFs output by HDRec don't play nice with AE4 as AE4 expects correct files, andHDRec (one version at least didn'y sdet one of the fileds correctly).
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I do not know what dark magic is performed in the drivers written by DW that AE4 apparently works fine with those drivers.
There is no magic at all. The drivers are unaware of AE4 and vice verca.
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Why recording doesn't work within AE4 is also a complete mystery to me. Could be that there are also some hidden DW driver communications to circumvent the limitations of AHI.
No. Ihave seen the source code at both ends of the pipleine and whilst I can't share details due to vearious NDAs I can confirm there's nothing custom goinf on there.
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Be aware that AHIrecorder isn't perfect either. The "Monitor" selection doesn't work at all. It shows the outputs instead of monitor inputs but nothing happens when you select anything in the monitor. I can't see any request being fed to the AHI driver. So maybe AHIrecord makes assumptions or relies on hidden direct driver communication as well.
Monitoring only works for hdausio on the X1k if Nemo Sound is running. If that affects AHIRecord as well I don't know.
Just to clarify, are you using geennaam's hdaudio on your X1000? And this "nemo sound" utility makes it work correctly with AE4?
What is this "nemo sound" utility? And what exactly does it do? I don't see anything on os4depot. From the name I'm guessing that it's X1000 specific...
Ah no. I'm using (Lyle Hayes ?) driver for the onboard HDAudio, this is different from the unfortunatly duplicately / similarly named driver.
Nemo sound is available from AmiStore, it controls aspects of the onboard sound that AHI can't get to such as monitoring and correct choice of recording source.
@Geenam
Apologies most of my responses to you are invalid if you are using your driver (forgot you had written a driver with similar name) on non X1000 sound card.
Not 100% sure what you are saying here, but to get correct monitoring with hdaudio on an X1000 you need Nemo Sound. There is stuff outside AHIs control that needs this custom driver / utility.
Not sure why you are talking about NEMO sound but I am talking about my own driver for PCIe HDaudio cards. The one that Hans is using on his X5K.
I am aware of AHI not having a generic volume knob. My driver/HDmixer combo has a special backdoor for controlling volume, mute and preamps as well.
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No, if you plug in a stereo microphone you get stereo , if you plug in mono one naturally you get momo, but two channels as that's how AHI records
I did verify how sound is recorded from MIC and LineIN using the same cable from my laptop while playing the same youtube video.
Only the linein gave an accurate stereo sound. The mics only stereoish like two channel mono.
This is how CODECs on PCIe HDaudio cards work and has nothing to do with AHIrecord. But it could be that the IDT codec on the X1K is different. It is vastly different from all other codecs anyways. And bad quality in general. So maybe it does one thing right by mistake
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Could be an issue with the level the record process is working at perhaps or that AHIRecord is not play simultaneously? Suggest an issue with the driver, but hey Nemo Sound is cheap and make it all work.
Huh? the monitor is an internal analog feedback path from input to output. Has nothing to do with recording and playback.
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Could be an error in the AIFF header. Certainly AIFFs output by HDRec don't play nice with AE4 as AE4 expects correct files, andHDRec (one version at least didn'y sdet one of the fileds correctly).
Multiviewer plays back the recorded file nicely at the correct lenght and speed. AmigaAmp plays back the file nicely at the the correct lenght and speed. But somehow it is a driver and/or AHIrecord issue with file headers because AE4 can't handl;e the recorded file?. You've completely lost me here.
Yes indeed apologies for the confusion. But the confusion partly came from the similarity in symptoms. It makes me wonder if a similar solution to Nemo Sound might be need the hardware supported by your driver?
Ah, okay. It might still be worth bringing Lyle into the discussion, because it sounds like AHI has problems that need resolving.
AHI prefs do show controls for the monitor and inputs, so programs should be able to control those settings there instead of needing a separate utility. We shouldn't need a separate mixer utility for each audio driver, either.
The fact that AHIRecord records okay, but AE4 and HD-Rec don't (with HD-Rec declaring it's a driver bug) suggests to me that AHI could also use some work to make writing a driver that "just works," easier. Neither app developers nor driver developers should have to test their code on all available apps/drivers before knowing if it works. Perhaps some additional support code in AHI itself could handle whatever the current incompatibilities are...
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Could be an error in the AIFF header. Certainly AIFFs output by HDRec don't play nice with AE4 as AE4 expects correct files, andHDRec (one version at least didn'y sdet one of the fileds correctly).
Sounds like I should try to find an audio file format converter to see if I can export something that works. That said, *.aiff files saved by Rave behaved the same way for me. The play cursor line goes way out of sync. AE4 may be very picky...
Could you test playback of files recorded with AHIRecord on your machine? That would be a quick way to check if it is indeed a file format issue.
The only way I see it being an audio driver issue, is if AE4 expects some kind of driver feedback to be exactly what Davy's drivers return. Even then it's still most likely an AE4 bug.
One thing to be aware of if you are replace a sample that AE4 is using directly with one that has a different length is that the pcg file will need regnerating and this is not automatic, this can make the file seem longer / shorter in the GUI.
Also make sure that the samples all have the same samplerate and it's as the playback sample rate, (which is semi automaticaly determined by the first loaded sample). This two can end up with some odd length in GUI issues.
Could you test playback of files recorded with AHIRecord on your machine? That would be a quick way to check if it is indeed a file format issue.
The only way I see it being an audio driver issue, is if AE4 expects some kind of driver feedback to be exactly what Davy's drivers return. Even then it's still most likely an AE4 bug.
I downloaded AHIRecord (my local copy froze whes starting, it was very old!)
I recorded a short stereo sample 14.5 seconds long, using a pair of head phones as plugged into the pink mic socket! End result was a genuine stero sample. Sample Rate was 41Khz
Started AE4 and manually slected 41kHz sample rate (default was 48kHz as I edit so much video) Loaded the sample into a test project.
Playback was perfectly in sync and it stopped exactly at the end of the sample.
I would check that your project sampless and project sample rate are the same. And that the generated pcg files for each sample or correct, (delete them and let AE4 recreate them, but only once the sample rates have been confirmed to be correct)
You have my email, if you want to send one of shorter samples to test here I would be more than happy.
I do not know how the AHI device works but let's see what AHI tells us with debug output enabled (AHI debug level=FULL in sounds prefs advanced settings tab)
When I execute HD-Rec_OS4 from workbench the following sequence happens:
1. Call to AHI_AllocAudioRequest() with some default values (44.1kHz, stereo etc) -> Open requester for AHI mode selection
2. Call to AHI_AllocAudioA() with user selected AHI mode, HOOK functions (AHIA_SoundFunc, AHIA_PlayerFunc, AHIA_RecordFunc), channels etc. The interesting part is the tag called AHIA_RecordFunc because I think this is the one that the error is about.
3. Call to AHI_GetAudioAttrsA() with tag AHIDB_MaxPlaySamples -> Minimum number of audio frames in memory
3a. Call from AHI.device to driver to request play buffer size
4. Call to AHI_GetAudioAttrsA() with tag AHIDB_MaxRecordSamples -> Number of sample frames that AHI will return when the HOOK Function of AHIA_RecordFunc is called.
4a. Call from AHI.device to driver to request record buffer size
5. Call to AHI_GetAudioAttrsA() with tag AHIDB_MaxPlaySamples -> Don't know why this is being called again
5a. Call from AHI.device to driver to request play buffer size
6. Call to AHI_LoadSound() -> Prepare to play a sample buffer of type AHIST_DYNAMICSAMPLE
7. Call to AHI_LoadSound() -> Prepare to play a another sample buffer of type AHIST_DYNAMICSAMPLE
8. Call to AHI_GetAudioAttrsA() with tag AHIC_MixFreq_Query -> Get the current mixing frequency
9. Call to AHI_GetAudioAttrsA() with tag AHIDB_MaxRecordSamples -> Don't know why this is being called again
9a. Call from AHI.device to driver to request record buffer size
10. Call to AHI_ControlAudioAttrsA() with tag AHIC_Input -> Select Input source
10a. Call from AHI.device to driver to Select Input source
11. Call to AHI_ControlAudioAttrsA() with tag AHIC_MonitorVolume -> Request Monitor volume
11a. Call from AHI.device to driver to Set Monitor Amp Volume
12. Call to AHI_ControlAudioAttrsA() with tag AHIC_Output -> Set ouput (in this case to all available outputs)
12a. Call from AHI.device to driver to Enable all outputs
13. Call to AHI_controlAudioAttrsA() with tag (AHIC_Play, TRUE) -> Signal AHI to start playing (the sounds in steps 6 and 7?)
13a. Call from AHI.device to driver to start playing the samples provided at the frequency selected by the user in step 1
14. Call to AHI_ControlAudioAttrsA() with tag (AHIC_Record,TRUE) -> Signal AHI to start recording (return samples to aplication with HOOK function AHIA_RecordFunc provided in step 2?)
14a. Call from AHI.device to driver to start recording
15. Call to AHI_SetFreq() -> Select frequency to the frequency selected by the user in step 1
16. Call to AHI_SetVol() -> Sets some kind of volume but I do not see a call to the driver for adjusting the output amp volumes
17. Endless calls to AHI_SetSound(). At this point the requester about the" Driver bug" occurs. And continues when the error window is closed
Main window of HD_Rec opens -> Still endless loop of calls in step 17
End HD-Rec program
18. Call to AHI_ControlAudioA() with tag (AHIC_Play, FALSE) -> Signal AHI to stop playing (rogue call from step 17 was interfering with this debug output line)
18a. Call from AHI.device to driver to stop playing
19. Call to AHI_ControlAudioA() with tag (AHIC_Record FALSE) -> Signal AHI to stop recording
19a. Call from AHI.device to driver to stop recording
20. Call to AHI_FreeAudio()
21. Call to AHI_UnloadSound() -> Unload sound from step 6
22. Call to AHI_UnloadSound() -> Unload sound from step 7
23. Call to AHI_FreeAudioRequest()
Apparently the endless loop in step 17 is how this program works. Just endless playing and recording.
I have checked the debug info of my driver and is indeed in an endless playing and recording loop
But while browsing through the SDK, I've found this little remark about the AHIA_RecordFunc:
".... AHIA_RecordFunc (struct Hook *) - This function will be called regularly when sampling is turned on (see AHI_ControlAudioA()) with the following parameters: A0 - (struct Hook *) A2 - (struct AHIAudioCtrl *) A1 - (struct AHIRecordMessage *) The message (AHIRecordMessage) is filled as follows: ahirm_Buffer - Pointer to the samples. The buffer is valid until next time the Hook is called. ahirm_Length - Number of sample FRAMES in buffer. To get the size in bytes, multiply by 4 if ahiim_Type is AHIST_S16S. ahirm_Type - Always AHIST_S16S at the moment, but you *must* check this, since it may change in the future! ..."
Apparently AHI assumed 16bit ADCs at the time of writing. But HDaudio has progressed to 24/32bit. So my sample buffers are returned in format ahirm_Length=AHIST_S32S. And it looks like both HD-Rec and AE4 ignored the *must* part and assume 16bit signed samples.
This is the only way that I can explain the behaviour.
AHI will only tell me to play and record at a certain frequency. But it doesn't tell me anything about the resolution. When playing, I always get a 32bit buffer for HIFI modes. So I automatically select the best mode available. When recording, I have to return the resolution/format in the AHIRecordMessage along with a pointer to the record buffer and the amount of sample frames. Apparently this is passed on 1:1 to the application.
But since there are programs out there that are making assumptions, I could try to discover the selected audio mode from driver side and adjust the sample buffer accordingly.
Edited by geennaam on 2023/1/2 19:18:01 Edited by geennaam on 2023/1/2 19:24:15
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Only V3 was released AFAIK.
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