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Software News : The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Posted by orgin on 2011/4/5 12:53:14 (4552 reads) News by the same author
Software News

A new Hyperion blog is up.

This time about the state of OpenGL via Gallium3D (and not).

http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=290


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Author Thread
nubechecorre
Published: 2011/4/5 13:03  Updated: 2011/4/5 13:03
Just can't stay away
Joined: 11/24/2006
From: Sanremo
Comments: 1873
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Thanks for the update, really appreciated!

Good Work Bros!
samo79
Published: 2011/4/5 13:14  Updated: 2011/4/5 13:14
Home away from home
Joined: 12/02/2006
From: Italy, Perugia
Comments: 3535
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Very good, hopefully we can get also more speed with the new 3D implementation, IMHO one of the main problem with our 3D actually is that :-/
Antique
Published: 2011/4/5 13:21  Updated: 2011/4/5 13:21
Home away from home
Joined: 11/30/2006
From: Norway
Comments: 2550
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Yes,and we need support for new gfx cards.
Rogue
Published: 2011/4/5 14:30  Updated: 2011/4/5 14:30
Quite a regular
Joined: 11/24/2006
From:
Comments: 624
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
The point of the whole exercise is exactly that:

- Get more speed by being able to use Shaders, hardware accelerated Transform/Clipping/Lighting, and improved transport mechanisms provided by the hardware.
- Get a full OpenGL implementation as opposed to an incomplete MiniGL
- Get access to the new features like GL Shader Language.
- Get access to the latest hardware that can be supported.

Having said that, Gallium3D does not support anything below R300 (which means that 9xxx and 7xxx cards are not supported by it), which is the reason why we opted for a driver architecture that allows for non-Gallium3D drivers. The initial version will probably lack support for these cards, but we'll be looking into that problem ASAP - this might take the form of a generic Warp3D driver, or trying to adapt the old DRI drivers.

Right now, this is not the focus though. The focus is on finalizing the infrastructure and the first software-only AMGL driver. We're looking at the end of this or the next week for that.
gerograph
Published: 2011/4/5 14:42  Updated: 2011/4/5 14:42
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 11/21/2008
From:
Comments: 338
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Quote:
Right now, this is not the focus though. The focus is on finalizing the infrastructure and the first software-only AMGL driver. We're looking at the end of this or the next week for that.


Well, even I donnot know how much work that is, I have got the feeling, that this is already good progress. This shows, that work is always progressing at hyperion, and that other tasks seem to be nearly finished (OS4.1 Classic / OS4.1 X1000) otherwise Hyperion wouldn't focus on OpenGL.

Thanks for Infos and ongoing support
Greetings gerograph
Kicko
Published: 2011/4/5 17:51  Updated: 2011/4/5 17:51
Just can't stay away
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Gothenburg / Sweden
Comments: 1175
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Thanks for the update, really appreciated!

Good Work all involved !
Rogue
Published: 2011/4/5 22:17  Updated: 2011/4/5 22:17
Quite a regular
Joined: 11/24/2006
From:
Comments: 624
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
*sighs* And since it was already misinterpreted elsewhere, the term "end of this week" or "end of next week" refers to, like Friday. It does not refer to the weekend, nor does it mean that I only work on this on the weekend.
ChrisH
Published: 2011/4/5 22:55  Updated: 2011/4/5 22:55
Home away from home
Joined: 05/19/2007
From: England
Comments: 3571
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Yeah, nice read.
AmiDARK
Published: 2011/4/6 0:30  Updated: 2011/4/6 0:30
Quite a regular
Joined: 11/03/2008
From: South France
Comments: 763
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@Rogue :
Concerning Video card like Radeon 9200 non supported Features for Gallium 3D,
TheGameCreators had a nice "approach" on the principle of "non supported FX" with their DarkBASIC Professional / DarkGDK On Windows.
When a function is used and that is not supported by the video card. the function exist but simply do nothing.
Isn't it possible to do the same concerning Gallium 3D and Radeon 92x0 ?
328gts
Published: 2011/4/6 0:53  Updated: 2011/4/6 0:53
Home away from home
Joined: 07/07/2009
From: Man Cave, Canada
Comments: 2749
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
thanks for the update & kick rocking for us bros
Rogue
Published: 2011/4/6 1:48  Updated: 2011/4/6 1:48
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Comments: 624
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@freddix

No, this doesn't work. The reason for that is that Gallium3D is completely based on shaders. There is no support for fix-function graphics cards at all. Fixed function vs. shsders is a complete paradigm shift, there only way to "emulate" this on non-shader hardware is by using software rendering.

this is the reason why we went for this approach - it does allow to have different, non-galliium3D or even non-Mesa drivers in the system.
poweramiga
Published: 2011/4/6 1:54  Updated: 2011/4/6 1:54
Amigans Defender
Joined: 11/18/2006
From: Flinders NSW Australia
Comments: 772
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
So does this mean i can rip the HD4870 outa me Mac Pro and use it in me X1000 ? as im wanting to upgrade to the HD5890or 5870 in my Mac
AmiDARK
Published: 2011/4/6 8:29  Updated: 2011/4/6 8:31
Quite a regular
Joined: 11/03/2008
From: South France
Comments: 763
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@rogue :
I DON'T TALK about EMULATION (re read carefully my previous speech)

Ok Gallium 3D is Shader based but:

A. I Doubt that for simple screen render, it will always use shader (ie. for workbench render) Otherwise it may be a loss in performancies

B.it support various card
and then, theser is always things such like :
1... Card xxxx support VS 1.0 PS 1.0
2... Card yyyy support VS 2.0 PS 2.0
So, these 2 cards can be supported by Gallium 3D ..
Do you understand ?
Then with card #1 if you try to use VS 2.0 PS 2.0 ... It will simply not work ..
But however, card #1 is handled by Gallium 3D.

It's what I said upper.
I think there is a way to make drivers for video card ... simply the limitation thet did put was probably for raisons like :
1. We have no user with smaller video card
2. It's not interesting to develop drivers for small cards..
3. ...

I really think that having more than 1 driver for the same video card to install in the system, can easily become a pain for the user ... and for the developer too ...

Regards,
AmiDARK
Rogue
Published: 2011/4/6 9:04  Updated: 2011/4/6 9:05
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Comments: 624
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@freddix

Gallium needs Shader Model 3 or better. FWIW, some of the new cards like Radeon R500 do not even have a fixed-function pipeline anymore, so yes, it is most likely using shaders for these all the time.

I am not sure why you are making such a big deal out of this. As I explained, our interface allows for non-Gallium3d drivers, specifically for this reason. There is no need to try and support and unsupported card in gallium3d if you can make it work with a standard driver.

And how do you get the idea there will be two drivers for the same card?
kas1e
Published: 2011/4/6 9:37  Updated: 2011/4/6 9:37
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From: Russia
Comments: 7916
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@Rogue
What a bit fear me, its willing to using gallium for the intuition/workbench/etc. I think there can be speed-loss, just because of one more driver-combo beetwen the parts. But i think you all will test and compare all of this :)

Btw, how you think support of old apps which use minigl.library will be done ? I mean for example user will have RadeonHD (so , gallium / opengl.library), but he will want to use apps which compiled with usage of "minigl.library", will be there new minigl.library exactly for the gallium/mesa users , or it will be something else ?
DAX
Published: 2011/4/6 9:49  Updated: 2011/4/6 9:50
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 10/06/2009
From: Italy
Comments: 312
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@Rogue
Thanks for the update!

Talking about older software, the fact that our current Radeon Drivers have "Read Only" Z-Buffer support, has precluded the use of Sculpting features in Blender, will we see an improvement in this department too and how will Blender be able to use such an improvement (it is based on our older stuff at the moment)?
EvilDrMike
Published: 2011/4/6 11:47  Updated: 2011/4/6 11:47
Just popping in
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Comments: 17
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@Rogue,

Thanks for the update. I hope we'll be seeing more of you here.

Mike
Rogue
Published: 2011/4/6 12:09  Updated: 2011/4/6 12:09
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From:
Comments: 624
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Quote:
What a bit fear me, its willing to using gallium for the intuition/workbench/etc. I think there can be speed-loss, just because of one more driver-combo beetwen the parts. But i think you all will test and compare all of this :)


What "one more driver-combo"? We're talking about replacing what is currently used, not adding layers on top of it. If you blit a bitmap now, it will tell the driver to blit the bitmap. That will not change whether the driver is called Gallium3D or Picasso96, or "Fritz", for the matter.

Quote:
Btw, how you think support of old apps which use minigl.library will be done ?


Probably by means of a wrapper library. Since MiniGL and OpenGL aren't that different, it should be mostly a no-brainer.
AmiDARK
Published: 2011/4/6 12:59  Updated: 2011/4/6 13:02
Quite a regular
Joined: 11/03/2008
From: South France
Comments: 763
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@Rogue :
I have maybe badly explained what I wanted.
In fact, what I considered drivers was most related to 2 OpenGL versions.
MiniGL for actual video card and Gallium3D OpenGL.

Understand this, especially in the progress of the AmiDARK Engine.
It is entirely based on MiniGL.
If I want it to support newer video card, I'll have to use Gallium and if I want it to be compatible with older cards (like Radeon 92x0 I have on Sam4x0 cards), I must use MiniGL.
I'll have to play with these 2 API for the entire engine ... and it's not good in term of development time and invest ...
It will force developer to work on 2 different API to make their soft compatible with 2 different kind of card and, to make their product being able to use the "best" of each hardware differencies ...
All products that'll want this capability (= compatibility + performance) will have to do the same.

Do you understand more my point of view ?

I found stupid (from the original Gallium developer) to force the need for Shader 3 ... Cos many things does NOT NEED shader to work ... it's like I said a pure subjective "choice" from them ... and, even if Gallium is the best solution for the future of our Amiga NG ... it has a big "architecture" issue to my point of view ... But I'm only 1 developer ...

Your work is great and I know you'll do your best ... but I wanted to expose this *different* view on things.

Regards,
AmiDARK
Chris
Published: 2011/4/6 13:03  Updated: 2011/4/6 13:03
Amigans Defender
Joined: 11/17/2006
From: England
Comments: 3317
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Quote:
Probably by means of a wrapper library. Since MiniGL and OpenGL aren't that different, it should be mostly a no-brainer


How about Warp3D? Will there be a Warp3D wrapper or a special Warp3D "Gallium" driver?
AlexC
Published: 2011/4/6 13:09  Updated: 2011/4/6 13:09
Just popping in
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: City of Lost Angels
Comments: 34
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Quote:
how will Blender be able to use such an improvement

The only way Blender will be able to do anything more than it already does is by clicking on Broadblues' donations button
AlexC
Published: 2011/4/6 13:27  Updated: 2011/4/6 13:27
Just popping in
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: City of Lost Angels
Comments: 34
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@AmiDARK

Wouldn't you just replace your miniGL calls with regular OpenGL calls and not worry about the rest, basicially letting the OS deal with the hardware side of things?

If I'm not mistaken you can always inquire from OGL if any given feature is supported in the current context and then skip the function or fork to a different subroutine to achieve somewhat similar results as if you had used the 2.x OGL functions.
kas1e
Published: 2011/4/6 13:46  Updated: 2011/4/6 13:46
Home away from home
Joined: 09/11/2007
From: Russia
Comments: 7916
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@AmiDark

Mesa have all the APIs which have MiniGL. MiniGL its just cutted version of opengl (which for now presented as Mesa on most oses). All what you need , its just write your code for API which present in MiniGL only, and all of this will works everythere.

Gallium there play only role of driver, you will not need to use any gallium api at all, you will still use the same OpenGL apis. And mesa port will have all the APis which minigl have.

You not need to think about will you use Gallium, or not. You just write your code for opengl (minigl or mesa, does not matter), and OS will choice yourself how to handle your app : by minigl.library or by opengl.library.

Quote:

If I want it to support newer video card, I'll have to use Gallium and if I want it to be compatible with older cards (like Radeon 92x0 I have on Sam4x0 cards), I must use MiniGL.
I'll have to play with these 2 API for the entire engine ... and it's not good in term of development time and invest ...


You not need to worring about it at all. You can do your code as you do already for minigl.library, and its all will works on plain minigl , or on gallium/mesa + wrapper to minigl which will translate it to opengl.


Quote:

I found stupid (from the original Gallium developer) to force the need for Shader 3 ... Cos many things does NOT NEED shader to work ... it's like I said a pure subjective "choice" from them ... and, even if Gallium is the best solution for the future of our Amiga NG ... it has a big "architecture" issue to my point of view ... But I'm only 1 developer ...


If work over Shaders will fast (and faster in compare with current one p96 drivers, which pretty possible) then who care how it done in driver ? You as coder use only OpenGL , and its all what should worring you imho.

You will not need yourself to think how to open a window, with gallium, or with not-gallium, you just use opengl apis, and for the rest OS will do everything as it want to do.

In other words, just write your code for minigl.library only, and it will works and on current minigl, and on future mesa port
AmiDARK
Published: 2011/4/6 17:42  Updated: 2011/4/6 17:42
Quite a regular
Joined: 11/03/2008
From: South France
Comments: 763
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Quote:
and OS will choice how to handle your app : by minigl.library or by opengl.library.

If it's the case in final. then no problem
but I doubt it will be so simple.
Lets Rogue confirm this ?
kas1e
Published: 2011/4/6 18:27  Updated: 2011/4/6 18:27
Home away from home
Joined: 09/11/2007
From: Russia
Comments: 7916
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@freddix
Quote:

If it's the case in final. then no problem
but I doubt it will be so simple.
Lets Rogue confirm this ?


Imho he mean it by this phrase:

Quote:

Probably by means of a wrapper library. Since MiniGL and OpenGL aren't that different, it should be mostly a no-brainer.


But yeah, will be cool if he can confirm it just to be sure :)
AmiDARK
Published: 2011/4/6 18:29  Updated: 2011/4/6 18:29
Quite a regular
Joined: 11/03/2008
From: South France
Comments: 763
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@Kas1e:
what makes me doubt :
Quote:
There is no need to try and support and unsupported card in gallium3d if you can make it work with a standard driver.

Actually to develop under open GL we must use the -lGL at compilation in the makefile.
With Gallium we will probably have another -xxx to use ...

Or will it be an "unified" driver for both cases ?

Rogue ?
Any CLU ?

Regards,
AmiDARK
kas1e
Published: 2011/4/6 18:35  Updated: 2011/4/6 18:35
Home away from home
Joined: 09/11/2007
From: Russia
Comments: 7916
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Quote:


Actually to develop under open GL we must use the -lGL at compilation in the makefile.
With Gallium we will probably have another -xxx to use ...


From my imho there will be just the same -lGL. All the others (trasnfer of OGL(mesa) calls to gallium driver) will be done on the low-level system level. So it will be just the same (imho).

Quote:

Or will it be an "unified" driver for both cases ?


I think Rogue mean, that everything will looks like this:

-- programmer compile OpenGL programm with -lGL

-- user run it on os4 , which can be with gallium driver, or without (warp3d/minigl).

-- OS check : if gallium driver present, then use gallium, if not, then check if warp3d/minigl present, and if not, then fallback to SW mode.

So, for programmer does not matter what SDK he will use : MiniGL one , or MESA one. Just with case if programmer will use Mesa SDK, then on old MiniGL many calls will just not works (as they not present in minigl).

Maybe it will be not -lGL for mesa-sdk, but -lmesagl , but in general that not big deal, OS will detect what is need to detect and fallback to the correct HW driver (gallium or w3d) or to SW driver.
Tuxedo
Published: 2011/4/6 19:44  Updated: 2011/4/6 19:45
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 11/28/2006
From: Perugia, ITALY
Comments: 339
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@Rogue

Since Radeon9800 was R350 and was the powerfull AGP card usable on A1/Peg2(and also the powerfull card that can be plugged in my Pegasos2 since no RadeonHD PCI cards can be plugged in it), but actually the Radeon9800 2D wasnt supported completely on AmigaOS4.x...
Was planned to be completed that support? Or I've to look for a Radeon9000pro as better card for my Peg2?

Thank you.
billt
Published: 2011/4/6 21:02  Updated: 2011/4/6 21:13
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Comments: 224
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Quote:
When a function is used and that is not supported by the video card. the function exist but simply do nothing.


Or, if a function does not exist in that particular gfx chip, drop back to a software implementation of that particular function. If I remember correctly, Picasso96 does this. Which is good, because as I remember one of the Radeon chips did exactly the inverse of what was desired for one of the line draw functions, so on that particular Radeon chip, we don't use the hardware line draw, we let the software function do that. (hardware inverted the color or something weird on that particular chip) But for other Radeon chips that did do as expected in hardware, then we do use the hardware line draw on them. Better slow then wrong, and better fast when correct.

Though it's been a long while, I'm not sure how well my memory holds up on this. :)
billt
Published: 2011/4/6 21:12  Updated: 2011/4/6 21:12
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Comments: 224
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Quote:
Since Radeon9800 was R350 and was the powerfull AGP card usable on A1/Peg2(and also the powerfull card that can be plugged in my Pegasos2 since no RadeonHD PCI cards can be plugged in it


Here are some PCI Radeon X1300, X1550, HD3450, HD4350, HD5450 cards.

And hre is an adaptor that will let you plug in any PCI-Express card to use. OK, it's a x1 slot, so you need to cut the back edge away for a longer card to slide in, or swap the x1 with a x16 plastic like I'm working on, though I think they should have made it with x16 plastic to start with. (pics to be posted somewhere when finished someday)
Tuxedo
Published: 2011/4/6 21:20  Updated: 2011/4/6 21:20
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 11/28/2006
From: Perugia, ITALY
Comments: 339
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
On Pegasos2 the PCI HD card cant be plugged because of they wasnt compatible with its bios...wasnt electric or so problem...

The A1 havent that problem...
Rogue
Published: 2011/4/6 23:09  Updated: 2011/4/6 23:09
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Comments: 624
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Quote:
Actually to develop under open GL we must use the -lGL at compilation in the makefile.
With Gallium we will probably have another -xxx to use ...


You need to get away from the mindset that Gallium is something you will even notice. You will be using OpenGL. On the Amiga, this means primarily "opengl.library", but since some specific init code is required, there is a libGL.a that will take care of opening the library, so in the end, yes, you only link with -lGL and nothing else.

The only differences are for example how you create a context. In MiniGL, you did something like

cc = mglCreateContext (blah blah blah).

With AMGL, you would do

cc = IOpenGL->CreateContext( blah blah blah).

That's it.

The point I was trying to make the whole time with the blog entry was that there is NO difference whether the system picks a Gallium based driver or something else. As a matter of fact, you will neither notice nor have any influence on what driver gets picked. If you feed it a bitmap, it will look for the driver that can render into this bitmap... hardware-accelerated if at all possible. If it finds a driver that can, it loads the driver and uses it from that moment on for your application (or rather for this bitmap. You can have multiple contexts at the same time). If it doesn't, it will fall back to software rendering. That process however is nothing you have any influence on. All you need to know about this is that you have to create a context just like in MiniGL. Everything else is handled by the system.

Hope it's clearer now.
Rogue
Published: 2011/4/6 23:11  Updated: 2011/4/6 23:11
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Comments: 624
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Quote:
On Pegasos2 the PCI HD card cant be plugged because of they wasnt compatible with its bios...wasnt electric or so problem...


I used to have a Radeon 9800, IIRC it worked on the Pegasos. That one has an R300 chip and is supported by Gallium3D.
Tuxedo
Published: 2011/4/6 23:19  Updated: 2011/4/6 23:19
Not too shy to talk
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From: Perugia, ITALY
Comments: 339
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@Rogue

Yes it works(Radeon9800 AGP) on Peg2/A1 but, afaik the Radeon9800 havent compositing and maybe 2D accceleration under AmigaOS4.x...right?
So it wasnt usable as default gfx board if the 2D "issue" wasnt completed first...
djrikki
Published: 2011/4/6 23:31  Updated: 2011/4/6 23:31
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Comments: 950
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
I think the word Rogue is looking for is 'seamlessly'.

Developers might have to make the odd tweak, but it won't be anything drastic. End-users will notice sweeping hardware-acceleration across the board.

Thats my understanding.
AmiDARK
Published: 2011/4/7 8:15  Updated: 2011/4/7 8:15
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 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@Rogue :
It's okay for me :) lol
Rogue
Published: 2011/4/7 8:58  Updated: 2011/4/7 8:58
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Comments: 624
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@DAX

there is no support for older Radeons yet, I don't know what we'll do about it so it is too early to say
kas1e
Published: 2011/4/7 11:28  Updated: 2011/4/7 11:28
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From: Russia
Comments: 7916
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@Rogue
Quote:

cc = IOpenGL->CreateContext( blah blah blah).


Just some small note: imho should be something like

cc = IOpenGL->OGLCreateContext( blah blah blah).

Right ? Just because when someone will use __USE_INLINE__, without IOpenGL (just with usage of plain apis), then plain CreateContext can borks with some other CreateContext calls.

I think for the same reassons for now we have "mglCreateContext" ?
AlexC
Published: 2011/4/7 14:19  Updated: 2011/4/7 14:19
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 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@kas1e

That's not likely to be a problem as normally you either include GL.h or minigl.h but not both so it shouldn't clash.

As much as I'd rather not use the IFace-> type of syntax, mostly out of lazyness, it actually makes the code a lot easier to maintain for others, and also yourself when after a while you can't remember which library provides a given function.
Rogue
Published: 2011/4/7 17:02  Updated: 2011/4/7 17:02
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Comments: 624
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Quote:
Just some small note: imho should be something like

cc = IOpenGL->OGLCreateContext( blah blah blah).


No, The interface is mandatory since it carries contextual information. The amount of calls required to get things going is minimal anyway.
AmiDARK
Published: 2011/4/7 19:12  Updated: 2011/4/7 19:12
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Joined: 11/03/2008
From: South France
Comments: 763
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Quote:
there is no support for older Radeons yet, I don't know what we'll do about it so it is too early to say

Older ?
What about Radeon 9200 / 9250 Available for Sam440/460 ?
Will you leave all these behind ? or will they use the actual driver ?
Rogue
Published: 2011/4/8 12:43  Updated: 2011/4/8 12:43
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Comments: 624
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Quote:
Older ?
What about Radeon 9200 / 9250 Available for Sam440/460 ?


What does the Radeon 9200/9250 have to do with Sam440/460? The latter has a PCIe slot which can use a Radeon HD.

For other machines, a Radeon 9800 is an option. But yes, anything before Radeon HD is "older" by all means.

Quote:
Will you leave all these behind ? or will they use the actual driver ?


Warp3D and MiniGL will not stop working, and as a matter of fact I was thinking about turning the MiniGL source code into an OpenGL driver under the new model. Right now, this is not the focus however. The focus is to provide a decent new graphics architecture and OpenGL for everything we *can* achieve. Supporting new modern cards is, right now, more important than updating support for the old cards. They will still work as they do now, and might or might not get updated to the new standard.

Let me reiterate:

- Supporting new hardware is the prime focus
- Supporting a fully hardware-accelerated OpenGL is the prime focus.
- Supporting older Radeons (pre-R300) is not the focus since we already have support for them, even if that support is lacking.
- Radeons before R300 are not supported by Gallium and hence will take considerably more effort to support with a full driver.
- All platforms except for the Classic and Micro-Ai can be retrofitted with more modern Radeons. That includes AGP versions of the Radeon R300 (like a Radeon 9800) or PCI versions of these cards.
- An card like a X1650 costs 25 Euros.

There is really not more to say about this topic. I think the above pretty much sums it up. As I said, most of the platforms we support can be retrofitted with "better" cards. We might take a look at the issue with MicroA1 later on (note: the word 'might') and see if we can make things work for those as well. Other than that: See above.
nubechecorre
Published: 2011/4/9 18:07  Updated: 2011/4/9 18:07
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Joined: 11/24/2006
From: Sanremo
Comments: 1873
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@Rouge

Quote:

The focus is to provide a decent new graphics architecture and OpenGL for everything we *can* achieve. Supporting new modern cards is, right now, more important than updating support for the old cards. They will still work as they do now, and might or might not get updated to the new standard.

Let me reiterate:


i agree with you, just don't forget all the sam440ep user out there that bought a sam and os4.1 supporting hyperion and amiga os

if possible would be nice to have gallium support also for sam's users

thx
Antique
Published: 2011/4/9 19:35  Updated: 2011/4/9 19:35
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Joined: 11/30/2006
From: Norway
Comments: 2550
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Sam users can use radeonhd cards. So Thats not a problem. Afaik there are 2 machines that will not support new hd cards,micro and the peg2.
Tuxedo
Published: 2011/4/10 14:47  Updated: 2011/4/10 14:47
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 11/28/2006
From: Perugia, ITALY
Comments: 339
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@antique

The Sam440ep was nice becaus of its miniTX form factor, if you put in the card a PCI RadeonHD card you left its beauty...
Antique
Published: 2011/4/10 20:25  Updated: 2011/4/10 20:25
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Joined: 11/30/2006
From: Norway
Comments: 2550
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Well, didn't quite get that one. But there are other radeonhd cars out there than just the big 4890 etc. I had a 2400pci card in mine,which is a small card. So no need to ditch the old case. :)
nubechecorre
Published: 2011/4/10 22:02  Updated: 2011/4/10 22:02
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Comments: 1873
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
yes i know you can put a radeon hd on sam mini itx but the pci on sam440ep mini itx is 33 mhz and not 66 like the flex version.. Only the onboard chip video has a 66Mhz pci connector.. So the point is, how fast a radeon card will go on a sam mini itx with a 33 Mhz PCI slot? just this..
Rogue
Published: 2011/4/11 13:23  Updated: 2011/4/11 13:23
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Comments: 624
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Quote:
if possible would be nice to have gallium support also for sam's users


The support for OpenGL will be the same across all platforms. If a system cannot be equipped with a compatible graphics card, it won't work. As I said, we will try to come up with a solution for older cards, but if there isn't one, then these systems will be forced to keep using Warp3D/MiniGL.

The same "supporting Hyperion and AmigaOS" can be said about MicroA1 users, but there, it's the same issue. We cannot make R100 and R200 chips work with Gallium. If push comes to shove, these machines will have to stick with Warp3D/MiniGL as well.
samo79
Published: 2011/4/12 9:05  Updated: 2011/4/12 9:05
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Joined: 12/02/2006
From: Italy, Perugia
Comments: 3535
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
So old MiniGL solution still ?

Is there any reason why oldest chip (like the one on Radeon 9250 for example) don't work with Gallium ? :-/

AFAIK Gallium support also this cards, almost on Linux
DAX
Published: 2011/4/12 9:11  Updated: 2011/4/12 9:11
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Joined: 10/06/2009
From: Italy
Comments: 312
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
I believe that the real beauty of the 440EP (mini) was that it gave amigans the chance of buying "something" to run AmigaOS on, when there was nothing available.
I gave my little cousin my old PC featuring an Asus P4PE mobo, you can't put more than 3Gb of ram in it, you cannot put a Radeon HD5xxx in it (and more) after 5 or 6 years, in computing "timings", you are supposed to upgrade, you cannot blame microsoft, nvidia or intel because their latest products don't run on old chipsets and OSs.
samo79
Published: 2011/4/12 9:48  Updated: 2011/4/12 9:48
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Joined: 12/02/2006
From: Italy, Perugia
Comments: 3535
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Yep but my system is less than 2 years old not 6 (I know the Radeon chip is old as technology), also if Gallium can support the oldest Radeon chipset as well why drop or not support completely all of them ?

Aniway i will buy a Radeon HD for sure, but of course i'll be happy if also my oldest card can be 100% usable on the Update 3, expecially when in latest 2 years i didn't be able to see all its power because the actual OS4 limitation in 3D performance ...

Aniway ...
derfs
Published: 2011/4/12 9:59  Updated: 2011/4/12 9:59
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Joined: 11/27/2006
From: UK
Comments: 199
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@samo79

Yes, the reason is Gallium does not have drivers for R100 and R200 cards.

for a list of radeon cards look here
samo79
Published: 2011/4/12 10:25  Updated: 2011/4/12 10:25
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Joined: 12/02/2006
From: Italy, Perugia
Comments: 3535
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
@derfs

Ah so it seems i was wrong, i was sure that R200 has been supported on Gallium since beginning, thanks for the list altrought i didn't found what i searched there ... but i found this thread on phoronix.com

http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread ... um3D-State-Tracker-Pushed

Hopefully Gallium developers will found some time for the oldest card too, crossing finger !
derfs
Published: 2011/4/12 10:38  Updated: 2011/4/12 10:38
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Joined: 11/27/2006
From: UK
Comments: 199
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
I would think having Gallium3D support for anything under R300 is 99% not going to happen.

Rogue has already said the worst case is you will have the same 3D as now with Warp3D and miniGL, but its still way too early to know for sure.
DAX
Published: 2011/4/12 11:01  Updated: 2011/4/12 11:01
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 10/06/2009
From: Italy
Comments: 312
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Speaking about the offended HWs here (MicroA1-PegII and SamEP-Mini) the youngest, the 440EP-mini, was seen in the wild as early as 2005 (no matter if someone bought it yesterday like MacSoceity just did) the others are even older.
As I said, regardless of the time of purchase, it is normal for very old HW designs to have some limitations when it comes to support.
I truly hope for Amiga's future that new HW technologies come to us over time (again and again) and to finally exit the poor-mans dimension of using used old HW all the time. (besides, you have a 2 years old SamFlex where all you will need to do, is buying a cheap new card ).

On a more general note though, Gallium approach is using shader units, not fixed functions.
As you said it is more a matter of the Gallium developers to actually do something about it, but as Derfs also said, it is very unlikely it's going to happen...
samo79
Published: 2011/4/12 11:03  Updated: 2011/4/12 11:03
Home away from home
Joined: 12/02/2006
From: Italy, Perugia
Comments: 3535
 Re: The state of OpenGL on AmigaOS
Ok now all is clear
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