@Mikey_C

I don't know if my opinion after a quick reading is much help to anyone but I have to agree with Billsey when he said:

"There's nothing new there. It's just reworked to include Itec LLC."

It boils down to the meaning of insolvency in terms of the law and the contract.

I know it is an offence to continue trading when insolvent in Australia, and that the company has to take immediate steps to deal with it. One way is bankruptcy and another way is reorganising the company structure to effectively make it solvent again. If it is a subsidiary, the parent company has two choices, it either lets it hang (bankrupts it) or rearranges the assets and liabilities so that the insolvency disappears.

Insolvency becomes a legal state when a legal action is taken, periods of insolvency that are privately solved before they manifest as a legal action, or it is just a bookkeeping anomaly, when liabilities outstrip assets are then readjusted so that they don't.

I don't know US commercial law, and only have the sketchiest notion of Australian Commercial Law, there are others, I am sure, that would have a surer opinion, a lot will depend on the judge's interpretation in any case.

But I think, whatever the outcome, Billsey's statement holds. This is reworking of Hyperion's original case, including Itec and better shaped to boot.

Basically I want it to end sooner rather than later.

@Rogue

"ExecSG's HAL can be made to work with a virtualizer service, essentially making AmigaOS 4.0 a hosted system."

Is it possible of running multiple hosted OSes or is this a basic misconception?

This could be very interesting for lightweight environments.

@IOWASURFER

I agree.

I suggest very strongly that there is only one-way out of this mess. Whether Hyperion, Amiga Inc or, hopefully, both release OS4 for the PS3.

Cut the Gordian Knot, break with the past and the idea that we must have our own hardware now, and look at the PS3 console as a Fixed Hardware model onto which we can not only graft our OS to, but also find a new and expanding market.

Break the deadlock in a practical way, my fear is the whole ship will simply submerge and never resurface and all the good work done will languish in neglect.

I would also point out that a quick booting OS, that is cheery and has X11 server technology, is just what the PS3 needs.

Linux is a square peg in a round whole and that is the only option at the moment.

Sony, whether it is aware of it or not, needs something like OS4. That is not a position we have been in in a long long time.

Booting from PS GAME Os into OS4 would take less time than most games to load, quitting out of it is as simple as any game (no shutdown required).

God I hope someone is reading this that can do something about it and soon!!

@all

MikeB mentioned PS3 Home which is rumoured for open beta release in three days time, with a stage one release perhaps around November.

There is a good deal of significance in this. At first it will probably not appear to much, a handy meeting place, some communications and a small market place.

However, the potential, if it is not stuffed up, is enormous.

People should take a look at Second-life, I am not recommending it, but there are features there worth considering, and aspects of these are inherent in PS-Home.

Virtual worlds have a lot of potential power, especially for the internet.

I call it the principle Virtual Geographic Self-Organization.

Instead of vying for notice on the Net, by intrusive advertising, sometimes very misleading, consider the power of Virtual Geography. Consider, for instance, a town of Porn (probably more a metropolis given the size of the industry). Go there and you know what you are getting, moreover, be there and your customers come willingly.

Apply the same logic, to any other industry or service. OSland, a place for Operating Systems, within a metropolis of Computing in the region of Software.

In terms of commerce and a better functioning web, virtual space in a geographical sense, self-organises, perhaps into stalls and shop fronts. The point being there is every reason to be in the right place (or several right places), and not popping up where you are not sought.

It is possible to staff shops, that is have people able to answer real questions. The communications aspect is very strongly developed.

If Sony, in the long term, does it right, and there are signs of this (the ability to kit private rooms with HTML pages, the market - mostly up market, spaces, the use of secure deposit based monetary system), then PS home is a power in its own right.

AmigaOS should be there in its early days, the first release I don't expect a lot from PS Home, but if they keep developing it, then it could well be the place to be for practically anything.

Endless google lists, could well become swiftly a thing of the past.

@actungbaby44

I could not be more pleased with my PS3, and intend to have several in the house, as computers for my two boys and another as a central part of entertainment centre. I am considering making one my main home computer as well.

Having recent got a Benq HDTV monitor (<a href="http://www.benq.com.au/products/LCD/?product=1010" target="_blank">FP241w</a>), I am overwhelmed by what comes through the screen.

OS4 would be my ideal OtherOS on it. I have Ubantu Linux at the moment, as far as Linux goes it is fine, but I don't like Linux at all, especially its slow boot. OS4 quick and easy booting and switch-off shutdown fits; Linux does not.

PS3 is a fixed architecture, and powerful, much more so than anything we are looking at in amiga HW. Plus it has already sold in its millions and thus represents the biggest potential market we have.

PS-Home is coming out soon and with that a means of advertising our OS.

It just seems such a logical way to go. No hacks required, a games console inviting in a foreign OS is found nowhere else.

And we have X11 server technology, and hence many of the essential and familiar SW products are a much simpler port away.

It is not a question of a PS3 owner wanting OS4 on their HW, but rather OS4 needs such a HW platform. It needs to break out beyond its community shell and begin to find new generations of Amigans - now.

@Rogue

Good reply.

I remain staggered that this is really thought to be an issue. Besides which MP has been talked about since I can remember re OS4.

It seems logical that if new programs have to be written to use memory protection, then older programs have to be sealed off somehow.

I have read Atheist's post several times, I cannot see any balance in this. Being able to snoop can in noway be compared to bringing down a system. It is like arguing seat belts should not be installed because they put creases in your suit when you drive wearing them.

If the OS ever emerges from this legal wrangle, I want to make the simple point that it stands up well as a modern OS, it needs to be a stable system and if that means resource tracking and MP, then so be it. If older programs have to be quarantined - fine. If there is some negligible speed penalty, well as an OS it is so fast unless it is done very very badly who the hell is going to notice?

This is the third time, I have in despair, looked at different OSes that might fit were I see OSes going in the future. There is nothing out there that has the promise of OS4.

There is one on the drawing board, but it will be many years I suspect before it surfaces.

Rogue, send me a post, when you can (greg.schofield@iinet.net.au), I have a suggestion, but do not want to bother you.

@Rogue

Forgive my ignorance, given the quote taken from here, for the life of me I cannot understand what the problem is, or why it should cause such strong emotions.

From what I understood you were saying is that a virtual environment would be set up for older programs, and that this was not like running an emulation.

It seems straightforward, and forgive me again, aside from a magic wand how could older programs otherwise be made safe within the new OS?

What you stated seemed indisputable, a better more seamless approach to running an emulation and not from what I understand a full sandbox environment.

I am confused, and to tell the truth can make less and less sense of what is happening on other sites in Amigaland. It seems to be a huge mountain made out of a very small mole hill.

Indeed it seems the crazies have taken over the asylum, for me I am standing back until the dust settles.

You probably can't say anything either way, so I will state this without expectation of reply.

I believe a lot of solutions would come out of decent money flow from sales. A PS3 port would make some sales (using LINUX of the PS3 is not my idea of fun).

PS Home beta is due out soon, followed by the full release, the importance here is that it would give a marketing position within the PS3 community to sell OS4 for the console.

Sales might be unpredictable, but OS4 does sell itself once a goodly number start using it on the PS3 (way better than LINUX especially for that user base).

Best of luck with everything.

@Atheist

I could not agree more, except for the unicode bit (but that is small cheese).

AOS4 is my preferred OS, alas I have suspended using it until things are sorted out.

When all the legal fuss started, I went around looking for a potential replacement - an OS that could do what I wanted and fit where I saw potential - I found none - not a single one that came close to it. There were some candidates that if changed might do the job, but none without making substantial change.

At the moment, re the multi-user potential, I walk around with a USB that contains my major XP apps and critical data, thanks to PotableApps.com. How much better to walk around with my entire OS environment - that is multi-user the Amiga way.

I have to laugh when people do bring up multi-user functionality when they mean emulating the God awful systems used on Windows and Linux systems that load everything centrally, make huge demands for upkeep, and make it difficult if not impossible to run 'foreign" apps. OS4 has dozens of ways of becoming a Multi-User system without changing too much at all and doing it much better IMHO than the big boys have down with their mainframe-logic.

I have loaded Ubuntu Linux on my PS3, it is one of the better linux's, yet switching from Sony Game OS, and closing down remind me of loading Windows - no turning off like Sony Games OS or OS4, no quick booting either.

There the heritage of mainframe is very obvious, packages get installed and disappear into the belly of the beast, files cannot be edited because of root privileges (and in Ubuntu the root account is sealed off, so it is all command line just to unlock a file). It is not an OS I could recommend for installing and then using, that is to normal users who want to be doing things with apps rather than endless fiddling with the OS itself.

Yes OS4 needs more development. But does memory protection really become all that important? Seriously a badly behaved app, should not be on the system, so I favour some protection, but not much more, it is not such a big problem in a quick booting system. If it can be brought in without sacrifice, fine, but it is not all that important (a list of well behaved apps, and known baddies would perhaps be more useful in a practical and immediate way).

The only big change needed is a proper AREXX replacement, that is not JAVA or Python - LUA or REBOL would fite very well indeed (versatile, data handlers, like AREXX, simple syntax with no specials, and have not become a series of special cases like Python).

The next thing is porting to PS3 - come-on folks there IS a market where OS4 as it is fits so well into the turn-off anytime quick booting Sony Game OS environment in a box that flies.

We have enough to begin with and the X11 server buys us a lot of time to develop native apps, by filling in the holes (all I would like here is n X11 app window that otherwise acts as a normal Amiga APP rather than the present mini-os screen (but we can live with that also).

Sorry for the long rant.

@Atheist

It is not a con game, but normal business practice for privately owned companies that have limited liability. That is to have a parent company where assets are held and subsidiary companies that operate as agents.

As Hyperion joined Itec into the case they have taken the necessary step to cover this. Whether there is enough merit in their case for the judge to do so is another question.

Whether such things are morally justifiable is another question, but it has long been the way of the world in business practice. There is no con, just barriers which companies normally employ to protect their assets.

Court costs would I think not be applicable unless there has been an act of bad faith somewhere along the line, or that the case had been brought forward on little merit. If they are awarded against anyone, it could well be in the other direction.

But where courts are concerned, it may well be better to just await for what eventuates. For our collective interest, I only hope for speedy resolution, push has come to shove, whoever is left standing will have to do.

@Mikey_C

I really need some very good news at the moment - fingers crossed.

@JeffShepherd

I may be wrong, but the way I understand it Itec owned old AMiga Inc and KMOS which became the owner of assets later transferred into new Amiga Inc.

Itec seems to have stood as the parent company in all cases. I assume 100% privately owned companies of AI (old), KMOS and AI(new). Itec seems to be the parent of all, and KMOS seems to have been created as a holding company only.

If this is true, and I can only speculate, then the apparent confusion of who is who in zoo, is really just a fairly normal (not that I am justifying it morally) business restructure.

As private companies, and none apparently listed as Public, such things are common in order to shed debt and other liabilities while maintaining and protecting assets.

I would not be surprised that all assets are in fact "owned" by Itec, while subsidiaries act as agents for them.

In this way Itec had to be directly brought into the case, as Hyperion now has done. In some ways while this is unavoidable it will depend finally on how Itec has structured its ownership, rather than whether transfers had been made, that is if private ownership holds for all the companies involved.

For years now I have been banging on about domestic servers and PS3, about the opportunity of AmigaOS to re-enter the mainstream.

The X11 server buoyed my hopes incredibly as a means of quickly bringing essential apps to our OS for such a move.

REBOL, out of the blue (for me at least, I had not kept a close watch on it for a long while), came up with solutions, that again for years I had been hoping for (re a Script based application environment).

SAM looked and still looks a perfect fit for a domestic 24/7 file server and service board.

I am not writing off OS5/AmigaAnything, but for the first time I can see all the bits and pieces ready to go.

1) A PS3 version of OS4.
2) A simple Server version of OS4.
3) A desktop version.
4) A stripped down version of OS4 for small devices and as a ported platform for REBOL (ie for different families of CPUs).

I don't really care who wins this court case, so long as it is won quickly and that this is followed up by creating the various flavours of OS4 outlined above. Three versions supporting legacy apps, Linux ports and traditionally compiled and designed OS4 apps (ie compiled for the PPC family), a bare bones ported OS4 which does not (just a platform for REBOL and its ported base and extensions).

But the window of opportunity is closing already.

There was until recently only "big" servers that could be used "domestically", then Network Drives, which were awkward - but now there are are from Japan, simple plug and play Network Drives that act as printer servers, simple file servers and, critically, multimedia servers (DLNA-based).

That is a window that has been closed and will take some effort to reopen in our favour.

A similar device that controls av equipment and other domestic electronics, with the simplicity of the newer network drives, remains open, but there is a lot of catching up to do there (re hardware and software) for us.

PS3 porting is a major hole, that could be quickly fixed and then refined, promising a large market, but as Linux wallows alone in that position, disinterest will gather in the market - we have until October when the PS3 will make another major move (system updates are coming out each month, 1.82 yesterday, in Australia it came out as 1.6 at the very end of last year).

It seems to me that the court case did not accidentally come now, rather it came because the players know this is crunch time. It was in this sense inevitable that it happened now just on the cusp of make or break. My only wish and hope is speedy and final resolution.

@Mikey_C

I don't think I can help much.

All that appears to have happened is that Hyperion has included Itec so that if it wins against the present AI, it won't have to deal with Itec separately - to that extent it makes sense.

The ownership issue, does not become any clearer, one way or the other. Itec as owners of both Amiga Incs (past and present) and KMOS, makes the whole thing appears to be merely a company restructure, with subsidiaries being faded in and out (not an uncommon thing).

Hyperion is hanging a lot on the "insolvency" issue, which I don't believe is all that strong, especially as the parent company seems to have arranged things to protect itself from insolvency. The incompleteness of the IP transfer surfaces again, the refusal of the $25,000 for the code offered this time(?) by Itec does not strengthen the case that Hyperion was being stripped of rights, though it might argue that the amount was not sufficient because of costs (though this has not been raised).

To my reading nothing devastating exists, rather it is a basic argument for bringing Itec into court, a restatement of the insolvency argument, and the argument that the IP was not properly transferred or proper notification given - ie what has already been stated re Amiga Inc replaced with Itec.

Don't get me wrong, Hyperion is sensible in bringing the parent company in, that had to be done, but now having brought it in, the bigger ownership questions come in (ie how Amiga Inc stands in relation to its parent company), that does not necessarily go in Hyperion's favour, but they had to do it.

@Billsey

There is the mystery all right.

In a sense Hyperion only has one through of the dice - only one real argument and this must of been fairly obvious to any good lawyer. Having counter-sued the basis for this is now out in the open, though there are bound to be a few things hidden away.

There is something bigger afoot. However, the developers, are not an asset to be thrown away, they are at least 50% of the source codes worth - what they have in their minds, is important, far more important than comments in their source code.

To lose that vision, wealth of ideas and future possibilities which also gave shape to the code but rarely is documented at all - that would be cutting off the nose to spite the face.

If there is this bigger picture, which I hope there is, then compromise to workable solutions has to be in the mix. To win the source code and lose the developers themselves is no real win for Amiga Inc, it is throwing assets out the window.

If the price to keep the developers is having Hyperion continue as part of picture, even if the worst view of Hyperion is accepted, is a small price for retaining the developers of OS4 whatever the other plans.

@DonF

I just had a look through the same material (wiki).

At a guess "Invisible Hand" would be the capitalising company. The Nokia connection is very interesting.

And http://www.espial.com/ also fits the mix, another company he is also on the board.

While Askar Capital which he advises, invests in real estate and may be the simplest explanation for the Kent stadium investments.

Unfortunately none of these seem connected to the new owners of Tao technologies.

Of the companies listed the most important fact seems that only on Amiga Inc is he the chairman, (although "espial" and "invisible hand" do not list him explicitly).

How active Pentti Kouri is in Amiga is a question. Hyperion may have found a fight out of the league, in which case I would be putting to Mr. Kouri that there is room to be flexible and the critical role of the developers, whatever is thought of Hyperion as a company.

A little compromise at this point might go a long way.

I have swung around, on finding this, to the idea that Aimga Inc's lawyers may be much better than they appeared in the Preliminary Injunction hearing. And that tactically they may have already have forced Hyperion into the position of revealing their intent by the counter suing, and thus gone some way in preparing their own case.

The argument that Hyperion seems to be putting, that they have a legal right to the IP, unfortunately also means that their position has been one intended to deny this right to Amiga Inc.

All Amiga Inc has to do is demonstrate that the IP rights never reached a point of being allocated to Hyperion.

If the next round of documentation has all the "i"s dotted and the "t"s crossed, Hyperion is in a bad position. If Hyperion's assumption has been that such documentation does not exist, which seems to be the case, they will either be mistaken and thus legally crumble, or still (if the documentation is as shoddy as what has appeared), have a major case to argue.

Again I would be saying to Amiga Inc and its chair, rather than take this to the line, (that is if their evidence is as strong, yet not yet revealed), at that point, seek a compromise. ACUBE's SAM is an asset, its distribution of OS4, a potential asset, Hyperion's royalties for overseeing development, is not a bad arrangement if:

If OS4 is defined as a desktop PPC OS and Amiga Incs plans for something very different that could run ontop OS4 desktop.

Instead of OS4 and OS5, how about OS4 PPC Desktop and OS4 Anywhere?

Allowing two very different developments to share the same code base, while doing very different things?

I suggest this for a couple of reasons. The Amiga community, which is a mess now, could consolidate around OS4 Desktop (along with the PS3 converts), demanding functionality development over time which could feed into both projects.

Instead of a single determining mindset, room is made for development along diverse lines, catering to different needs. OS4 Anywhere hosted on OS4 Desktop would at first appear very foreign to the Amiga community, if this is a new sort of application environment, people will progressively make use of it within the community, especially its power to harness other devices in a consistent way.

There would be incompatibilities and duplication, but this is not a bad thing, so long as developer to developer communications is made a priority (partially by-passing company to company communications - which evidence shows has not been very good at all).

Developers are the key, as far as I am concerned Hyperion is simply coordinating development in one area, so leave them to it, because despite the problems, the developers it has used have done a magnificent job.

Amiga Inc's development cycle has too long been a closed shop, understandably, but when it has product ready this can be largely dispensed with.

My view based solely on the wiki on Pentti Kouri is that he wants a real win at aged 58, not just wealth, I suspect (there are faster ways of making money than Amiga Inc, and a handful of small technology companies), rather it may be he wants to establish something that makes a difference (I hope so).

PS for those who might be reading this from positions of influence, REBOL is a technology well worth considering, with or without Tao's.

Interesting times, I just wish they would settle into workable solutions that I can get my hands on ASAP.

@Mikey_C

Out of court settlement and arbitration probably will not be on the agenda until both sides show all their guns.

Hyperion have to counter sue at this point. To tell the truth I don't know what this means in terms of US court procedure, all I do know that usually this means both sides take on something of an equal footing in court, if the cases are consolidated which should follow.

Basically it should mean that a court remedy will not decide that simply X has not got a strong case, but Y should get something for its case.

Otherwise if Hyperion is purely on defence, they might win, but not necessarily win what they are after. Counter suing should mean both sides claims come into a single court case.

A preliminary injunction, which Amiga was denied, is a safety/pressure measure, it is usual practice and nobody should read much in to it (it is like a ambit claim, before the real battle, an attempt to get all you want the easy way).

The next step if the court battle goes on is evidential, at which point both sides will get a precise understanding of the opposite case and a real measure of the strength of their own.

At that point who is behind AI should surface, along with many other things, on both sides.

I don't know how discovery works in the US, but basically if it follows the norms anything that is at issue (such as developers contracts, company transfers, audit material etc.,.) may have to be surrendered.

All a dreadful waste of time to my mind.

However, the point where out of court settle is seen as the best solution, is now as the court proceeding head towards mutual discovery, and tabling of evidence.

The problem is that it is also a time when one side might well discover it has a stronger case than it anticipated and goes for broke in court - I believe at this time that the current stock of documents available are not much to make a judgement upon.

A good legal team might well use a preliminary injunction as a means of revealing little about itself, but fishing out some things about the opposition in order to better prepare its main strategy.

In effect, if they are ultra sharp, they have told Hyperion only what they want them to know and made them reveal things that help strengthen their case.

These things are horribly complex and full of tricks.

Alternatively what we may be looking is two companies without good documentation, or particularly strong cases. If AI is slightly behind at this point, Hyperion is only slightly ahead - in either pair of shoes I would be looking for out-of-court resolution.

@Helge

I was referring to Mitch's speculation in the post above mine:

"although I suspect that the new owner of the IP is the same venture capital group that owns Amiga Inc in reality"

It crossed my mind as a possibility also, that is all.

@Mitch

You may have misunderstood my meaning, as it closely parallels your own.

If the new owners of Tao are the backers of AI, this could become something critical.

My suggestion, is that OS4 should be defined as full desktop version of the OS compiled for PPC CPUs. But a cutdown version supporting AIs baby ported onto whatever and also supplied as a separate add-on for the full OS4, is a solution.

My bias is based not on AIs plans, which I know precious little. But on the following.

1) A major division between OS proper (machine interface) and application environment (general user interface), is a necessary step forward.

2) OSes, even OS4 has evolved to a point where I consider too much has been planted in OS functionality, that properly belong as general tools within an application environment.

3) OS4 has the virtue of being small, versatile and robust, and easy to use, it has the drawback of being a traditional desktop environment.

4) An application environment is a very different thing to an OS desktop, it is a task orientated environment capable of evolution (rather than a place where discrete applications simply run).

This can be all considered completely irrelevant to the court case, it may not even be true of AI's plans. But I genuinely believe if any part if true, there is a way out of his mess, that could be good for everyone.

I don't know of the frictions that lead to this case, I can see why AI wanted to lance the boil, but it is now at a different level. One aspect of this is speed, I believe the major reason AI launched the injunction was because they need to get moving. Swift resolution, and not an abstract legal debate over contracts and IP is the real issue.

Arbitrate, compromise and move, I hope, is now the actual agenda. I hope I am right.

@all

This is a well written and well argued ruling. And I think a good step towards resolving the problem, as arbitration becomes a very real option.

RICARDO S. MARTINEZ, the judge, has in preserving the status quo until "trial" has in effect sent a very clear message.

Neither side has a killer argument, nor killer evidence. It would be a very very messy "trial" producing quite unpredictable results. Going to further court remedies seems a highly risky venture for both sides, and very expensive.

The judges summation of arguments presented appears concise and to the point. His faulting of Amiga Inc's case rests on no-irreparable damage, and not on any strength or weakness in the evidence itself.

His comments appear to amount to a general underscoring of danger and weakness, it appears to be advice not to proceed further in trial, without giving such advice. Both parties should see the writing on the wall - hopefully.

Arbitration is far less risky, and could quickly resolve things.

AI going to trial could well lose its IP rights, and Hyperion could just as easily lose its rights in development and distribution. Mutually assured destruction may well be the most likely outcome.

arbitration on the other hand, is more likely to preserve the original intentions and with compromises both sides gaining the best achievable outcome.

@GregS

Forgive me for keep harping on about domestic servers.

In despair I hot the internet, hoping to find a small OS and a passively cooled board to set up my domestic server.

Now there is probably something out there, but I did not find it, and what I did find I would not know how to go about it.

But with SAM OS4 (even a cut down version) and REBOL or LAU, I could get that working. Plus with its on board graphics, and at least on good fast PCI port, it is more than enough

A domestic server has to be passively cooled, and run 24/7 with as little power as possible.

A fan seems a simple thing, but it is a 50 cent technology capable of bringing a whole system down. Domestic servers should be started and largely forgotten, they will never be in ideal conditions ( a good box design with smart chimneys, that separates out the heat sources, simple air-filters and creates a steady draft - is a good idea).