Np should have made it clearer. Geeat that it works!

Joerg:

No idea on the reasons. But i also asked a betatester
to repeat the test with the final version on A1222 which
will be done somewhen during easter days probably.

But it is not isolated to H2. All games using Q2/Q3
engine have on A1222 but his MASSIVE unplayable slowdown
(Several also crash on soundcode but if sound is
disabled they run with massive slowdown). And
those slowdowns are definitely much worse than
Warpos context switches appearently.

I cannot test myselves as i do not have a A1222
but i have several people accessible who can try
it for me.

@Maijestro

The audio tracks are on CD 2, not on CD1. You
copied the wrong CD. And i am sorry,
seems documentation was unclear here.

Myselves i use a nrg image to play them with
Heretic2 using diskimage.device, but .bin/cue
works too i was told. But of CD 2.

How is the type of emulation chosen?

EDIT: my tester did not mention anything on blacklisting
H2 for LTE so i assume it was with lte, they got
1 fps with software renderer, 3d hw did not render
characters in menu (this only happens on A1222,
probably some issue with float maths?) and on starting
a level “blind” game aborted with reporting bad datafiles
(But datafiles were not bad in software renderer it
started despite slow). Note this only worked so far
with disabled sound i did not investigate the a1222
Sound issue as the game was not playable anyways. I
asked now for a retest of released version and to ensure
Lte was used but i suspect same results will come.

What i can tell you is the game runs extremely slow
on A1222 (unplayable slow). And it is not only H2 but
any kind of Q2/Q3 engine game. Q2, Q3 and the two
Jedi games have been exactly the same issue (some
also have an issue with the sound and crash but if you
start them with sound disabled this unplayable slowness
happens).

I am told this is due to using float parameter passing
which due to the differences in ABI (due to SPE)
calls emulation.

And despite being 20 years old all Q2/Q3 engine
games use massive amount of float maths ams especially
float parameter passing (also in dynamic libraries,
but statically linked games based on Q2/Q3 engine
seem to have the same problem).

Games from around 2000+ already use a lot of float
maths better suited for A1222 would be games from
around 1995 or older which usually use integer
maths.

I was up to now under the impression (and directly from someone who definitely knows and is an expert on SPE) that you have to adapt every single float-passing with special code.

If it is enough to do -msoft-float to do it with integer - well, might be possible to do, after all no float happening then.

From 68k version I know though this gives around 3-4x slowdown (my first version of H2 on 68k was softfloat due to compiler issues which then could be fixed by a later version of the compiler). Might still be enough to be playable (100 fps divided by 4 still is 25 fps). Note though these test numbers on 68k with soft-float were only the software renderer. No idea how the GL renderer will behave, it might be more "vulnerable" to this.

Also I am definitely not working on modifying clib. But if someone else can provide me with a compiler (preferred one which works under the cygwin environment) I could give it a try. I could actually handle a soft-float version of gl4es myselves, I am compiling my own gl4es anyways. Other libs I would need would be SDL (but I only use it for sound, for a prove-of-concept I could go without it), libstdc++ and libdl (but that one won't use floats, so I guess the normal one could be used with no problems).

As to "Warp3DNova would need conversion", is that so ? Would Shared Libraries also need to be recompiled for this approach ? (But of course GL4ES *will* call ogles2.library and through it Warp3DNova and probably do float parameter passing inside).

As I said, assuming the Warp3DNova stuff does not defeat the idea, what I would need would be a compiler fitting for it with libstdc++ and libc having been adapted accordingly (assuming the claim that you just have to modify the makefile of gl4es to softfloat and same on the game would be really enough).

Myselves I am extremely sceptic here (especially as I assume GL renderer will take a worse performance hit going to integer than software renderer will, and that one already got around 3-4x performance hit) but willing to try. But definitely would not be involved in creating a changed clib and stuff. That someone else would need to provide. I assume existing development tools for the platforms I support.

Best regards,
Steffen

@Taddy

I am not against the A1222. Just in case of H2/Sin I do not think it is viable (see below).

As I said I want to support the A1222 in future projects.

As to H2/Sin:

The functions used in H2 do loads and loads of stuff with float-parameter passing. You basically would need to take the game completely apart.

This is also the reason why all idtech games run slow on A1222. They all do it that way.

And it is not only about the games itselves. The games extensively use GL functions using floats. By parameter passing. Meaning most likely you would need to port gl4es over to SPE first, before you can even start doing the game. Is Warp3DNova BTW SPE-capable ? I have no idea (But I have to admit I never looked into the internals of Nova, below gl4es level).

Imagine I would do all that work and then find it still slow, due to float parameter passing to gl4es or inside it. Huge risk that all the work is in vain.

There ARE 3D Games which can run on A1222.

First of all non-3D-Games.

Second 3D Games doing int math (these are usually very old 3D Games, 1995 or earlier).

Third would be I guess games which use Shading instead of classical GL (then all the float-calculation is inside the shaders). The bad news is if you go for games using shaders you close the door for 68k support which limits your sales. But on A1222 this might work (with some adaption).

One example successfully (AFAIK) adapted is Wipeout. Does all the polygon maths in integer, and the float stuff for the renderer is (I only had a quick look at the PC-source-code) appearently in one file. One file. Where Heretic 2 has a renderer of around 300 kb, with float passing all over the place. And it is not limited to the renderer...

It makes more sense to port another game than doing a A1222 adaption of an idtech game. The effort of both options is probably comparable.

It is of course something not only the A1222. The Vampire also is better with integer math than with float - though appearently on that one the message arrived that float is important and they do some work in the area. QEmu - also runs best with Integer Math. But in modern games it is INTEGER MATH which is irrelevant. All which matters is float maths (and that needs float parameter passing of course).

MagicSN

Current update:

Heretic II: <released>, 68k still todo
Sin: <in works>
Quake 2: Finished the last bug today, but some works in installers todo (will come with installer from PC CD, Steam Data and Gog Data each)
Secret Projects: Back in business (commercial projects). Supposed to be for PPC and 68k. A1222 included. Vampire and PiStorm included. Classic Amigas - maybe.

I meant preferred you own and use of course ;)

Hi!

I made a survey entry on os4welt https://os4welt.de/viewtopic.php?t=2793 about for what systems people bought Heretic 2 for OS 4.

Even if you don't read German maybe some of you who bought it could also click the Survey (I think Amigans does not allow to do a survey unless I missed the option).

While surely not all buyers will read forums it might still give an idea. I am of course especially interested in the share of "actual PPC system" vs. "QEmu" here.

Thanks.

Best regards,
Steffen

Yes, indeed that is the hack I was looking for. Thanks a lot But before I do this I have to read it really careful

Any info what i need to take care of when exchanging the RadeonHD against
a RadeonRX on an x1000?

- any jumpers to change?
- do i need to set up new screenmodes and stuff before
rebooting with changed setup or can the rx theoretically
run with HD stuff at least for workbench screen?
- what all do i need to change on software side?

Thanks in advance! (I got the rx in a box since some months)

Best regards,
Steffen

Ah i changed one thing in MiniGL - to be able
to compile MiniGL and gl4es on the same system
I had to rename the directory name of some includepath,
Renaming GL to GL2 for MiniGL (as GL is the one for
gl4es) and all occurences of it to be able to compile
with it with the same compiler installation.

@Raziel

I used the latest publicly available MiniGL. When i
got it i was surprised it supported multitexturing now
and backported the multitexturing code from gl4es
to the MiniGL renderer so in the released version both
have multitexturing

Where i did custom modifications was with gl4es
as it used
a) it was not compatible to be run from inside a so library,
i fixed it
b) it used a generic function name somewhere and h2
used the same generic function name somewhere i
fixed this

I gave the changes back to the gl4es project months
ago though and AFAIK they integrated it into their
code.

Best regards,
Steffen

Hi!

I was asked what is the difference between the two versions, the one from 20 years ago and the newly released OS4 version.

Here we go:

- H2 for WarpOS (20 years ago version) is not PPC native, but uses the context switch mechanism of WarpOS while H2 for OS4 is fully PPC native

- The new version offers GL4ES so it runs on newer (Warp3DNova) 3D Cards also while the old one only runs with MiniGL (the new version supports both MiniGL and GL4ES - and SW Renderer too which the old one also did, old one did MiniGL and SW Renderer)

- Much newer version of MiniGL which supports multitexturing while old version didn't - multitexturing speeds the game up and improves effects. Also old version had some graphics errors on some 3D HW due to the MiniGL version used there still an old version of MiniGL while now for the MiniGL renderer the latest version is used (a version which was not yet available back then)

- Multitexturing basically means several texture unit of the 3D Card can calculate at the sae time, can be up to 25% speedup in H2

- Higher resolutions - 1920x1080 and 4k supported (1920x1080 runs 97 fps on a x1000 with RadeonHD)

- The way the WarpOS version dealt with CD Audio no longer works with more recent CD Drives. The way the OS4 version does it always works. And also offers playing from mounted ISO instead of from a physical CD. Also it is no longer required to put the CD in drive during playing. CD is only needed during installation (and CD2 for CD Audio but if you leave it out the game does not complain, it just skips the CD Audio then)

- full AmigaInput support - you can set 3 sources for every action (mouse, keyboard, gamepad for example)

- The installer of the old version caused problems for some people. These problems have been fixed (it is a complete new installer, Commodore installer no longer used). Also no problems about "low on stack" anymore.

- The WarpOS version sometimes had some rare crashes. This has been fixed in the OS4 version.

- For multiplayer asides from the built in multiplayer there is THF 3.0 (sadly not 5.0 as the 5.0 source code is not available). The OS4 version of THF has bugfixes the WarpOS version of the Addon did not offer. Also the OS4 version works with all maps from THF5 (even though not all features from THF5 are supported). I hope I might still manage to get Grinbots integrated into the OS4 THF 3.0 build, but might be some time till I find time for this.

- Packaging and printed manual in much higher quality

The port was basically redone from scratch

Features only in the WarpOS version:

- PSX Port and other classic-only input-hardware (but there are AmigaInput Drivers for PSX Port etc., so it is also supported for Classic machines)
- AGA Mode (not sure if this was in the release version of H2 WarpOS, I think it was but not sure right now) with HAM8. OS4 H2 requires Graphics Board.

Best regards,
Steffen

@Raziel: Ooops, sorry. I was just before reading on os4welt.de and somehow my brain was still in "German mode".

Anyways what I said:

- I will soon upload the H2 Multiplayer Addon THF to os4depot
- I still have source-code for a second multiplayer mod, but that one will be more complicated to port (and I have some other work at hand...) so no idea when to find the time for that (if anyone wants to help out with the second addon, feel free to contact me).

MagicSN

Denke ich uploade heute auch das Multiplayer
Addon THF 3.0 fuer h2 auf os4depot. Leider
nur 3.0 nicht die auf pc übliche Version 5.0
Source code ist mir nur fuer 3.0 verfügbar.

Man kann THF 3.0 also nur unter amiga usern
spielen (man kann mit h2 selber einen
Server hosten). Ist so ne Art Team fortress
Nur mit Heretic2 statt mit Quake.

Source fuer ein weiteres Addon hab ich noch
das is aber komplizierter umzusetzen und keine
Ahnung wann Zeit dafuer (wenn jemand bei
dem zweiten Addon helfen will gerne)

Xmas update:

H2

OS4 - in production so out of my hands now (finally)
68k -
Pistorm- finally got a system. Working on getting sound
works properly (without crash) actually for both pistorm and vampire
currently (but now xmas break, will continue after xmas). Also got
GL renderer running but too slow with software based wazp3d.
Normal software renderer runs fine on pi3 pi4 and picm4
Vampire - Alain Thellier is working on a Wazp3d maggie driver.
MiniGL renderer is ready for that. As i said under pistorm currently
working on soundcode but now xmas break will continue on 27th (i had
it running with sound on vampire before but that code caused
crashes in certain situations).
Also Apollo offered help on ammx optimization, we will see what this
means to software renderer

Sin

OS4 - no timedemo yet and no mission cd asides from that pretty
much working fine, seems faster than h2
68k - will continue to work on getting it running on
Pistorm and vampire on 27th. I expect it to run faster
than h2. I finished getting sw renderer fully working on os4
(On os4 also minigl and gles of course) which is a good
preparation for 68k port where we need sw renderer too).

Q2 - not much news

Got now the MiniGL renderer of H2 ported to 68k.
Still got massive amount of debug output in so too
early to say about speed. But removing all the debug output
and then do speed test is the next step (PiStorm with
Wazp3d and 060 with actual 3d care)

Good that the sources are saved

My own Amiga Sources are always asides from anything else also on my external Backup Drive which I only use for backupping and which is stored savely away then.

One year ago I found Sin OS3.x+WarpOS code on there And started making OS4 port then.

I lost a source-code really many years ago (nothing important), that should never happen again I said after that

@Olle

Have to admit I still use P96 for such stuff myselves (even Heretic2 OS4 version does ). But like you I have been away some years.