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Internet News : sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
Posted by Anonymous on 2009/7/15 7:07:42 (2155 reads) News by the same author

Thom Holwerda provides a gentle yet critical review of AmigaOS4.1 running on the Sam at OsNews.

Read it here

An extract from his conclusion follows

Quote:

AmigaOS 4.1 just didn't let me in. It's like being invited by a friend to a party where you don't know any of the people there. Your friend promises to remain by your side and ease you into the group, but once you arrive, your friend wanders off into the crowd, leaving you by the sidelines. And the group of people have known each other for 30 years. And they're catching up to 30 years of shared history. And they really aren't interested in newcomers - this is a reunion, not a party.

AmigaOS 4.1 seems to cater too much to the past, instead of looking forward. The developers are catering to the ever shrinking group of classic Amiga users, instead of trying to capitalise on the strengths of the platform to try and bring in new people like myself. I simply don't get the idea that the developers are trying to advance the platform.

So, to get back to my original question: is the Amiga platform worth its hefty admission fee? It will completely depend on what kind of person you are. If you're a long-time Amiga user, or you have very fond memories of the platform, it's certainly a good investment and you won't be disappointed.

However, are you a geek like myself, with a more general interest in operating systems and software, then it becomes really hard to justify spending all this money to get an operating system that is by no means modern, and which - it pains me to say - will be nothing more than a very expensive toy. Consequently, I have to add that if money is no issue for you, my point becomes moot.


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orgin
Published: 2009/7/15 9:14  Updated: 2009/7/15 9:14
Supreme Council
Joined: 11/16/2006
From: Sweden
Comments: 3226
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
Recommended read. Thanks for posting it DaveP.
Slayer
Published: 2009/7/15 10:50  Updated: 2009/7/15 10:50
Quite a regular
Joined: 03/11/2008
From: Dunedin, New Zealand
Comments: 868
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
Although it seemed a fairly honest and genuine review etc I think he should have discussed all the "lacking" features etc with someone that knew AmigaOS and how to accomplish what you want it...

This review is based on someone who expects things to be done for them... He completely missed out mentioning that AmigaOS is designed to be fully (and that means FULLY) user configurable... I hate the freaking IBM at work that I am forced to use for office work because it remembers stuff... ARGH LOL

All the points he makes that annoyed him geneally can be done... window size etc can be set in a config file/mui gadgets installed in the window frames if available etc, icon positions can be saved by selecting the icons and right mouse hold snapshot etc...

You get my point...

other than that I haven't got much to say... and if anyone even mutters 'a step in the right direction' so help me! LOL
trixie
Published: 2009/7/15 11:58  Updated: 2009/7/15 11:58
Just can't stay away
Joined: 05/01/2009
From: Czech Republic
Comments: 1317
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
@Slayer
"All the points he makes that annoyed him geneally can be done... window size etc can be set in a config file/mui gadgets installed in the window frames if available etc, icon positions can be saved by selecting the icons and right mouse hold snapshot etc..."

Sure that can be done! But the question is: why should everything be done _manually_? You consider "full user configurability" an advantage; well I do not (much like the reviewer) because it can be a nuisance. I'd prefer the OS gave me an option to automate certain things, instead of forcing me to "use my liberty to do everything by myself"
Fransexy
Published: 2009/7/15 12:54  Updated: 2009/7/15 12:54
Just popping in
Joined: 11/27/2006
From:
Comments: 75
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
'd prefer the OS gave me an option to automate certain things, instead of forcing me to "use my liberty to do everything by myself"


Then windows is for you.It NEVER force you to be free instead you are the slave of the OS

We want AmigaOS because acts different and you have control of the OS and not the opposite.We want choices and not Another linux/windows/macos clone.If you like how other OSes acts then the answer is clear, use them but please keep alive choices for the people that like a different OS approach.
bean
Published: 2009/7/15 14:25  Updated: 2009/7/15 14:25
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 11/26/2006
From:
Comments: 402
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
A very interesting read and some valid points.

The one area I'd like to see AmigaOS improve in is its memory protection. I know this would break almost everything with apps having to be modified, recompiled and some rewritten or thrown out entirely, but I feel it is a necessary step.
trixie
Published: 2009/7/15 14:48  Updated: 2009/7/15 14:48
Just can't stay away
Joined: 05/01/2009
From: Czech Republic
Comments: 1317
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
@fransexy

"Then windows is for you. It NEVER force you to be free instead you are the slave of the OS"

No, Windows is not for me, otherwise I wouldn't return to (and start daily using) OS4

"please keep alive choices for the people that like a different OS approach."

By asking for options in the OS behaviour, I'm not robbing you of _your_ choices (you already have them available). Rather, by sticking to 20-year-old principles you're somewhat robbing me of _my_ choices, don't you think?

And Fran, what exactly do you get from staying within the childish "good OS vs. hostile OS" paradigm? We are discussing technical things here so why use stuff like "slave to the OS" etc. in your arguments?
Published: 2009/7/15 14:57  Updated: 2009/7/15 14:58
Joined:
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Comments:
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
Trixie

I agree with you, we used to get the same kind of things over DOS versus Windows, Unix command prompt versus an X-Server.

Point is, people now expect not to have to do certain things by default.

If you want to switch OFF "automation" then do so IMO. This is the problem with non integrated GUI components like MUI, all the farting around to get items changed, windows snapshotted et al ad infinitum. All sorts of esosteric knowledge required to do obvious things.

Given the kind of criticisms he COULD have made about "Amiga" based OSses in general, he was mild I felt.

Even default commodities in the startup drawer (or startup prefs) might alleviate some of the pain. As he sayes quite plainly, this kind of attitude we see here of "piss off back to Windows" (well not quite, but not far short) whenever someone reminds us of the steep learning curve or points out something off putting is what stops him feeling invited to the party.

AmigaOS needs to become a better host to the user.
trixie
Published: 2009/7/15 15:20  Updated: 2009/7/15 15:20
Just can't stay away
Joined: 05/01/2009
From: Czech Republic
Comments: 1317
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
@DaveP

"All sorts of esosteric knowledge required to do obvious things."

"AmigaOS needs to become a better host to the user."

Exactly. To loosely quote myself from a similar thread at AmigaWorld.net, "the OS is there to help the users do their work (= run programs and produce data), not learn things that are apparently of technical nature".
Slayer
Published: 2009/7/15 22:12  Updated: 2009/7/15 22:31
Quite a regular
Joined: 03/11/2008
From: Dunedin, New Zealand
Comments: 868
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
While I appreciate what you guys are saying I still feel you are not what I call pro Amiga... if an OS works it's timeless in my opinion... It seems to me far too many people today are trying to just merge what OS is best at doing whatever and I really like LINES! You stay over there etc... LOL

And I'm one of the minority these days that thinks cpus and there usage should remain with the geeks... If you haven't got it, leave the damn technology alone...

The last word is No One should write a negative review about the Amiga, there is nothing wrong with our baby... just like other people in reality don't have anything to offer me other OSs don't either, I don't care what the jones are using, quietly enjoy it but as far as cpus are concerned it generally is really a perception not a hard set in stone necessity...

AmigaOS will be fine, it always will be... new users will just be word of mouth and hands on... I don't want every dog and there cat using it... The majority can suffer as far as I'm concerned... heh

< now for some humor - like the entire message isn't eh? heh I know what people think >
Now you may call me close minded, stubborn and exactly why AmigaOS isn't evolving as you might like but just remember, the OS wouldn't even be here if it wasn't the grunt who pays for everything... I brought my first Amiga in late 1985... I own 90 systems... what I say goes LOL... now stop debating the OS and get me another SAM variant!!!!
< end humor >

@Fransexy

You go!
Slayer
Published: 2009/7/15 22:42  Updated: 2009/7/15 22:45
Quite a regular
Joined: 03/11/2008
From: Dunedin, New Zealand
Comments: 868
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
Quote:

Exactly. To loosely quote myself from a similar thread at AmigaWorld.net, "the OS is there to help the users do their work (= run programs and produce data), not learn things that are apparently of technical nature".


exactly my point - you aren't legally allowed to drive a car without a licence - so why make a cpu more friendly to use? There are just as many vehicles on the road as there are cpus in the home, the car is just as much integrated etc... Where as the difference here is, they make getting your licence harder where you want to make using a cpu easier... sure you might not kill a person with your cpu (although there are a few associated cases) but look at all the damage using a cpu has done to many peoples lives all over the world... If there wasn't this great push for every tom dick and harry to get online many peole would still be happy...

Basically what you are suggesting is the same problem with the world, lets cater to the lazy or the inexperienced or the two left handed people...

Damn man, not everyone is the same and that's just the way it is!

You might not get your car licence but you could be the president of the local chess club...

people NEED to be happy with THERE lot and stop buggering around with things that they don't take too!

humanity needs contentment!

heh
orgin
Published: 2009/7/15 22:55  Updated: 2009/7/15 22:55
Supreme Council
Joined: 11/16/2006
From: Sweden
Comments: 3226
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
@Slayer

Ohh darn, all those things that has been added in os4.x that makes life easier must be driving you furiously mad then.
Published: 2009/7/15 23:15  Updated: 2009/7/15 23:15
Joined:
From:
Comments:
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
You know, I'm convinced. OS 2.04 was a mistake, let's go back to OS 1.3.
Slayer
Published: 2009/7/16 5:21  Updated: 2009/7/16 5:27
Quite a regular
Joined: 03/11/2008
From: Dunedin, New Zealand
Comments: 868
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
Well we all knew that was coming...

I think you kind of misunderstand; it's not that the OS shouldn't evolve it's just it shouldn't be the governing priority and certainly not based on someones overview from a different OS background...

They or you can all be used to what you find indespensible etc and what you think is and will be attractive to users of today... frankly I don't give one at all... the interest should be in NEW cpu users NOT poaching todays yesterdays news... It might take 20 to 30 years but tommorrows babies could be using AmigaOS to colour there world! heh and not thinking AmigaOS is odd...

AmigaOS is not going to die, it isn't going anywhere to rest for eternity... you all need to chill out and just watch the Development plan unfold...

To honest I want the Amiga saturation thing to happen VERY gradually, I think I've taken just about as much as I can handle of the so called new users who come on board and complain about some feature missing etc etc... can't they accept it is a different environment and read the manual and get on with it or abandon it... no come on to Amiga forums and go how stupid is this? I've paid this amount for this? blah blah...

paint a red dot on there forehead oh lord
my_pc_is_amiga
Published: 2009/7/16 6:16  Updated: 2009/7/16 6:18
Just popping in
Joined: 10/26/2008
From:
Comments: 45
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
There was mention of: "windows don't automatically activate when clicked and transparent windows seem strange when in the deactivate state"

I have always liked the Amiga being able to keep the activated window behind -- soooo much better. Everytime I use Windows, it pains me! As a matter of fact, I think now that we have transparent windows, there should be a keyboard short cut to push bottons etc. on the active window beneath! I'm just thinking of like Tunenet where I want to push something but don't want to bring it in the front. Or even like Amidock being behind.
Published: 2009/7/16 8:04  Updated: 2009/7/16 8:04
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Comments:
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
Quote:

I think you kind of misunderstand; it's not that the OS shouldn't evolve it's just it shouldn't be the governing priority and certainly not based on someones overview from a different OS background...


Well speaking from an AmigaOS background, I find most of the things he finds a pain in the arse ... a real pain in the arse.

If he was complaining that all the hotkeys weren't the same as Windows or the filesystem works differently than BeOS then I'd agree with you. I'd reply, live a little.

However Intuition/Workbench etc should not get in the WAY of you managing your environment.

The fact that you still have to go, in some cases, hunting around to find the deficons drawer in order to update some default behaviour is laughable. Or the click-to-front isn't active by default. Or that windows whose contents have NOT been snapshotted don't auto-snap-to-grid in the default order.

All of these things don't just make it look unfriendly, they make it look messy.

What about auto-updating the open drawer when something has been added to the filesystem it has rendered? Why is that causing such a problem with frozen shoulders and high blood pressure?

Why do any of the things above really change anything to do with "amigaishness" (what a vague concept that is).

If nothing else take the guys feedback as "this needs to become easier to do" and then implement the remedy of your choice.

Simply renaming the prefs icons might be a start.
gregthecanuck
Published: 2009/7/16 10:06  Updated: 2009/7/16 10:06
Just popping in
Joined: 12/05/2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
Comments: 192
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
Regardless of Tom H's opinions on OSNews, there is no such thing as bad publicity. Hyperion should hopefully see this review for what it is - an outsider's honest opinion.

The nice thing is that a lot of the issues raised aren't really that much work to address.

This also opens the door for future reviews of newer OS4.x and up releases.
Mark
Published: 2009/7/16 12:37  Updated: 2009/7/16 12:37
Just popping in
Joined: 06/29/2009
From:
Comments: 42
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
Well personally, I dont find too much of those things a Pain. The lack of applications - definately, the click to front - no I like it, it means when replying to email, doing whatever where you need to refer to another window you can keep that one to the front while typing in the one to the rear (very usefull). However I also fully accept others may not come across that need (for me Windows insistance on bringing those windows to the front is a real PITA - if I want it at the front I'll tell it to be there).

The real issue here though is that to appeal to a wider audience (which is what we'll need to do to grow the platform), some of this needs addressing to have a default configuration (maybe an install/prefs option ie default to Windows/Linux type behaviours or Classic Amiga) more like that of other OS's to enhance the experience for them.

Obviously more apps need to be included as default, I mean he is right not being able to play AVI files by default is a bit terrible (obviously as a long time Amiga user and having bought DVPlayer I hadnt noticed this lack). To be honest I've also never had a problem with MPlayer, but then Im on an A1-XE so maybe there is some difference there. I reckon OpenAmiga will help with a lot of this, but maybe AmiUpdate could be enhanced to install as well as just update, it could in-fact perhaps be used to install a "recommended" set of apps based on usage type (much like the initial install of debian)

Mark
broadblues
Published: 2009/7/16 12:56  Updated: 2009/7/16 12:56
Home away from home
Joined: 12/04/2006
From:
Comments: 2298
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
@DaveP

Last time I checked a window full of icons that have not been snapshotted will arrange itself quite nicely (I'm having trouble find a draw full of unsnapshotted icons to test this with though ), certainly if you enable show all files in a drawer full of 'uniconed' files they lineup in rows unless the file names are very long, in which case the columns get scrambled.

Features like the non automatic snapshotting of icons / workbench windows should never be switch off by default IMHO as they are major reasons to use the thing in the first place. Windows user may be driven mad by it, but Windows drives me mad for the exact opposite reason. If you make the default more Windows like to "ease the transition" the "new user" will likely never find the benefitial difference.

The one thing about icon snapshoting that always frutrates me is that if two icons have been snapshooted to the same place they will overlay each other! So if you download a batch of files into a drawer with existing snapshotted icons, you get problems, icons just should be allowed to overlay each other. They can't in the root window of the workbench, so why can they in the drawer windowes?

The lack of autoupdating drawer contents when a new icon/file is added is not a feature though, it's amissing feature that ought to be that way out of the box. Although instant update could slow things down, so a short delay to allow multiple file to update at the same time would be sensible.
Slayer
Published: 2009/7/16 23:24  Updated: 2009/7/16 23:24
Quite a regular
Joined: 03/11/2008
From: Dunedin, New Zealand
Comments: 868
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
OMG :(

I just write a great reply that summed it ALL up and I quoted everything and I carefully answered it with a genuine overview etc...

and the session expired... and because I am on a work machine I tried to go back and what do you think happened?

PROGRESS Huh? ARGH
MickJT
Published: 2009/7/17 3:57  Updated: 2009/7/17 3:57
Quite a regular
Joined: 04/28/2009
From: Adelaide, Australia
Comments: 940
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
Quote:
I just write a great reply that summed it ALL up and I quoted everything and I carefully answered it with a genuine overview etc... and the session expired...


Well, that's why on a long post I always copy it to the clipboard before hitting send .... and yes, I really do that.
Slayer
Published: 2009/7/17 5:46  Updated: 2009/7/17 5:46
Quite a regular
Joined: 03/11/2008
From: Dunedin, New Zealand
Comments: 868
 Re: sam440ep and AmigaOS4.1 review on OsNews
I've done that in the past too but isn't this exactly what everyone is going on about? you shouldn't have to do such things with a modern OS... and why impose a timeout anyway? One of the limitations of the implementation of Java or Host software no doubt... lol who the hell cares burn the whole thing down see if I care!

We had a big Earthquake last night here in NZ and since NZ is the closest planet to GOD the end is coming and not a moment freaking too early either!

So kiss it ALL goodbye! wheeeeeeeeee!
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