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Re: PPaint OS4 questions
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@xe1huku


It's fully native PPC port.

You can't hide the extra gadgets, they will grow on you You can hide *all* the gadgets though by pressing F9 (show them again by pressing again).

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Re: Filler questions
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@kas1e

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So no one know about possibility to assign "tab" key to switch between Filer's listers when any Filler's lister active ?


Each Filer window is a seperate instance of the application, so this would be tricky to implement in Filer let alone with a third party option.

If Filer had an ARexx interface... but it doesn't.

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Re: Anyone have success using Audio Evolution 4?
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@geennaam

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That what I guestimated based on the numbers given by Hans

Audio frames != buffer sizes.


Quite, I was working in frames....

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From reading ahisrc, the hooks provided by the app get called as part of the hooks passed to the driver, even if the driver doesn't care about specifics.

The buffer is probably / possibly the same size though.


I don't agree:
- A 16bit HIFI mode takes 16bit samples in and always supplies 32bit mixing buffer to the driver
- AHI has to do resampling (and expand or shrink the buffer) when there is a mismatch between "audiomode frequency" and "input sample frequency" .
- The application can determine its own buffer size as input to AHI as long as it is equal or larger to the value returned by AllocAdio() AHIDB_MaxPlaySamples tag.


Again I'm thinking in frames, your right the samples would likely get upgraded to 32bit for many drivers


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Aha! I think this is the issue. AE will be setting the procesing frequency via AHIA_PlayerFreq and expecting the EffectOutputBuffer callback to be caled in sync with that, but your driver has forced AHI to process the data at a faster frequency due to the needs of the PCIe DMA resultng in the callback being called more often and thus it pushes the timer bar on faster than expected.


I don't know what the EffectOutputBuffer is. Is this the 16bit stereo sample buffer provided by AE4 to AHI?



No it's a buffer provided back to the application by AHI containing the final mix data, to enable it to implement VUs etc.

AE4 is using it for that purpose but also to 'count' the data finally written to the sound card.

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Anyways, it indeed looks like AE4 is making wrong assumptions again:
- AHIA_PlayerFreq tag determines the frequency of application buffers supplied to AHI based on the following formula:

"Application buffer size" >= "driver buffer size" * "sample frequency" / "audiomode frequency"

AHIA_PlayerFreq = "sample frequency" / "Application buffer size"

So AHIA_PlayerFreq determines the rate at which frame buffers going into AHI. The wrong assumption by AE4 is that frame buffers will exit AHI to the driver at the same rate.

This could be the case when the driver relies on timing provided by AHI. In case of a "sample frequency" and "audio mode frequency" mismatch, AHI could resample and adjust buffer size to the driver but keep the buffer rate to the driver the same. So effectively the application is providing timing to the driver instead of AHI. And the driver needs to adapt it's own timing base on provided buffer sizes.

But in case of my driver, the audio hardware determines the buffer output rate:
If the sample frequency and audiomode frequency are both 48kHz then the minimum application buffer must be 1024*48kHz/48kHz = 1024. If the AE4 application buffer is set to 2000 than the player frequency is set to 48000/2000 = 24Hz. But my driver requests data from AHI at 48000/1024 = 46.875Hz. So if the AE4 cursor somehow counts how many times data is going out to the driver and compares this the value of the AHIA_PlayerFreq tag then the cursor will play at almost twice the speed in this example.


Er yes, that's roughly what I said above (with more technical details ) .

A possible solution without too much redesign of AE4 is to check the number of frames passed back in the hook and calculate from there.

I'd be interested to know how you set up the driver based timing, as I have virtual driver project (that sent audio data to HDRecs mixer from external apps) that I could get to play but was always broken audio, probably because of timeing mismatches.

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If a solution can be found, then I could ask if an update could be made. He might say no though....

Maybe you can only ask one question: When will you make the source available as you've announced in the AE4 readme on os4depot.


Don't know why he never released it. Perhaps because it was incomplete and didn't build. (I've regenerated the bits that were missing). Maye he just chnaged his mind

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Re: Anyone have success using Audio Evolution 4?
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@Hans

Quote:

At broadblues' suggestion, I tried changing AE4's sample buffer size (Options=>Preferences=>Performance), and it affects where the cursor ends after playback. Dropping it down to 1 extends the end position to 25.5 seconds. Putting it back to 10 returns it to the original ~24.7 seconds.


That was less of a change than I originally expected, with my new logic above it shouldn't change much at all, but the changes could just be down to the number of whole buffers that get processed.

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Anyway, once we figure out what AE4 is doing, perhaps we could update the ahi.device to hide the driver differences. I know it uses the low-level API but it shouldn't be so low-level that the application needs to know the mixing method.


I think it must already as otherwise AE4 wouldn't be playing back smoothly, it's just this particular side effect of the rate the effectoutputbufferhook callback is called that can't be.
(If I'm right).

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Alternatively, does anyone still have contact with Davy?


Actually yes, I have. Albeit very occasional. Usually in the context of the android AE5.

In fact I have had the AE4 source for about 6 months or so, but didn't want to say in public earlier as it's on a strictly personal use, ask Davy no questions about it, basis. I didn't want to mention this earlier as I didn't want to abuse the special favour he gave me in sharing it, better to reply usiong the publicly availabe AE3 src as reference. (This aspect is the same, although the hook itself is more sophisticated).

If a solution can be found, then I could ask if an update could be made. He might say no though....

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Re: Anyone have success using Audio Evolution 4?
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@geennaam

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Similar to recording, the playback sample buffer has to be requested by the application as well.


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In my case always 1024 audio frames.


That what I guestimated based on the numbers given by Hans

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All HOOKs are supplied by the AHI device with the AHIAudioCtrlDrv structure. So no specific flags or function calls from the application.


From reading ahisrc, the hooks provided by the app get called as part of the hooks passed to the driver, even if the driver doesn't care about specifics.

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I don't think that the application hook and mixing hook point to the same buffer because AHI has to do some mixing first before the audio data is presented to the driver.


The buffer is probably / possibly the same size though.

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[snip]. So no multiple calls to the same buffer.


OK so you aren't looping over the hook multiple times per buffer.

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My driver works in a different way compared to other drivers. I do not use mixing routines with timing provided by AHI. Instead, the audio hardware determines the timing. This is the only correct way to feed PCIe DMA busmasters.
FLAGs are correctly returned in AHIsub_AllocAudio so AHI is aware of the diver running in this mode.


Aha! I think this is the issue. AE will be setting the procesing frequency via AHIA_PlayerFreq and expecting the EffectOutputBuffer callback to be caled in sync with that, but your driver has forced AHI to process the data at a faster frequency due to the needs of the PCIe DMA resultng in the callback being called more often and thus it pushes the timer bar on faster than expected.

I don't see how you can reasonably fix that at the driver end.

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After all, Recording and playback works just fine. I have double checked the AE4 behavior and when I record for 5 seconds, it also displays a 5 seconds sample. It is just that the playback marker plays at almost twice the speed and stops almost twice the length of the recorded sample But both recorded sound and playback are fine audio wise.


I'm not sure what consequences the time marker being in the wrong place has.

Editing the sample at specific places will be harder, though when you move the cursor it will start playing from the correct place.

It might ot might not affect automation timing.

It possibly will affect punch in punch out recording, start and stop times.

One work arround might be to record parts with the direct driver, then edit after the fact with the audio.device drivers (UNIT 0: in the AHI mode requester of AE4) you would be limited to 44.1 or 48 KHz though. Which is usually OK anyway.

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Re: Anyone have success using Audio Evolution 4?
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@geennaam

Quote:

I don't handle this. It is part of ahi.h (device stuff) and not ahi_sub.h (driver stuff). So it is only something between the application and the AHI device.


Well you kind of do in so much as the hook is called as part of the AudioCtrl->ahiac_MixerFunc hook that you presumably call from your driver at some point, else AE wouldn't be advancing at all, neither would the VUs in master slider be updating.

It looks like you may be calling that inside your loop for processing submitted data rather than just once per submision, I may be wrong, ofcourse, I just gessing based on apparent side effects.

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The application has to call AHI_GetAudioAttr( AHIDB_AHIDB_MaxRecordSamples, pBufferLenght ).


That's for recording. AE does call that and set the buffers to the right size, but that'snot the issue here.

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Re: Blog Post and Video about NetRexx - Share Amiga ARexx Ports over the network.
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Thinking of KingFisher

King -> Rexx
Fisher -> Net

Bad pun but ....

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Re: Anyone have success using Audio Evolution 4?
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@geennaam

Digging through the AHISrc it seems you wouldn't be calling it direct but via the
AudioCtrl->ahiac_MixerFunc hook.

Could you be calling that more than once per block of submitted data?

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Re: Anyone have success using Audio Evolution 4?
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@Hans

Quote:

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So the sample recorded by AE4 appears twice as long? What exactly do you mean by that? It seems odd especially as you mentioned the sample actually played correctly.

It's not exactly 2x. My test sample is ~14.3 seconds long, and the playback cursor ends at ~24.7.


Hmm slightly less than 2 x is odd, I would expect it to be slghtly over or exact.

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If you "master" the project does it play the project in sync? This uses the filesave driver so should eliminate driver incompabilty issues.

The playback cursor stops at the end of the sample, so I guess that it is "in-sync."


OK so it does seem that the out of sync is driver related then, because filesave works as expected.

@geennaam

How does your driver handle the AHIET_OUTPUTBUFFER effect?
Could there be any reason why the block size handled there would be different from that being passed in by AE4 in the playback hook?

If that seems a cryptic question, that's how the AE3 src drives the blockcount and thus the progress of the timebar etc.


Edited by broadblues on 2023/1/3 12:17:03
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Re: Anyone have success using Audio Evolution 4?
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@geennaam

I'd also give option2 the thumbs up, especially as there seems to be no way for the lowlevl API to request a given sample format.

Quote:

I can also record undistorted sounds in AE4 now. But unlike HD-rec, AE4 still thinks that a sample is almost twice as long. This is also still the case for imported 16bit AIFF samples that were created with AHIrecord. And while AE4 looks like a nice program, I do not plan to fix all bad programming.


So the sample recorded by AE4 appears twice as long? What exactly do you mean by that? It seems odd especially as you mentioned the sample actually played correctly.

@Hans

If you "master" the project does it play the project in sync? This uses the filesave driver so should eliminate driver incompabilty issues.

I'm thinking the 'playback cursor' is advanced based on how many samples played (it's not time related as such as when mastering the progress is as fast as the CPU can go.)

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Re: Anyone have success using Audio Evolution 4?
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@geennaam

The archive on aminet might be labeled 6.0 release but the version of the ahi.device code contained within is 6.6 (I just double checked). Versions and build dates match with the OS4 bundled ones.

You may well be right that the Filesave driver needs further modification for OS4, no idea where the modified src might be, if so.

I just tried to build it from the src in the aminet archive, lots of warning, it gets to link stage, but fails, but the failures are all related to DOS deprecations and one Newlib related one. As the version numbers match I suspect it is the origial src, just that the compiler and SDK have moved on in the last 17 (!) years and made it troublesome to build.

fd2pragma can deal with sfd files IIRC. Though it's pain to have to do so.

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Re: Anyone have success using Audio Evolution 4?
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@geennaam

Quote:

So based on this, the sources for the modified OS4 AHI version should be available.


I don't think the AmigaOS4 version of AHI 6 is modified in any way. As far as I know (might be wrong but 95% sure) it's straight "port".

Only the example drivers are (L)GPL though, so unfrtunatly sources of the various other drivers aren't freely available.

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Re: Anyone have success using Audio Evolution 4?
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@Hans

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Sounds like I should try to find an audio file format converter to see if I can export something that works.


I would recomend SOX there is a port on OS4Depot.

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Re: Anyone have success using Audio Evolution 4?
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@Hans

Quote:

Could you test playback of files recorded with AHIRecord on your machine? That would be a quick way to check if it is indeed a file format issue.

The only way I see it being an audio driver issue, is if AE4 expects some kind of driver feedback to be exactly what Davy's drivers return. Even then it's still most likely an AE4 bug.


I downloaded AHIRecord (my local copy froze whes starting, it was very old!)

I recorded a short stereo sample 14.5 seconds long, using a pair of head phones as plugged into the pink mic socket! End result was a genuine stero sample. Sample Rate was 41Khz

Started AE4 and manually slected 41kHz sample rate (default was 48kHz as I edit so much video) Loaded the sample into a test project.

Playback was perfectly in sync and it stopped exactly at the end of the sample.

I would check that your project sampless and project sample rate are the same. And that the generated pcg files for each sample or correct, (delete them and let AE4 recreate them, but only once the sample rates have been confirmed to be correct)


You have my email, if you want to send one of shorter samples to test here I would be more than happy.

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Re: Anyone have success using Audio Evolution 4?
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@Hans

Just a quick thought.

One thing to be aware of if you are replace a sample that AE4 is using directly with one that has a different length is that the pcg file will need regnerating and this is not automatic, this can make the file seem longer / shorter in the GUI.

Also make sure that the samples all have the same samplerate and it's as the playback sample rate, (which is semi automaticaly determined by the first loaded sample). This two can end up with some odd length in GUI issues.

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Re: Anyone have success using Audio Evolution 4?
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@geennaam

Quote:

Ok, we are clearly out of sync so I stop here.


Yes indeed apologies for the confusion. But the confusion partly came from the similarity in symptoms. It makes me wonder if a similar solution to Nemo Sound might be need the hardware supported by your driver?

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Re: Anyone have success using Audio Evolution 4?
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@Hans

Ah no. I'm using (Lyle Hayes ?) driver for the onboard HDAudio, this is different from the unfortunatly duplicately / similarly named driver.

Nemo sound is available from AmiStore, it controls aspects of the onboard sound that AHI can't get to such as monitoring and correct choice of recording source.


@Geenam

Apologies most of my responses to you are invalid if you are using your driver (forgot you had written a driver with similar name) on non X1000 sound card.

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Re: Blog Post and Video about NetRexx - Share Amiga ARexx Ports over the network.
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@Raziel

Yes, I'm pretty much always on beta.

Shouldn't affect the results of the s/NetRexx/newname/ exampes though.

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Re: Anyone have success using Audio Evolution 4?
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@geennaam

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Yes, I can select the correct input (Don't mistake enabled sound for the correct input.)
The monitor will feedback audio to the linout and hp out no matter if you have selected the correct input to the ADC. The monitor will provide sound for any valid input.
(This will result in free mixing when recording from the monitor input instead of mic/line because the monitor itself will provide the hardware mixing for you)



Not 100% sure what you are saying here, but to get correct monitoring with hdaudio on an X1000 you need Nemo Sound. There is stuff outside AHIs control that needs this custom driver / utility.

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Be aware that MIC inputs will give two channel mono. Only Linein will give real stereo.


No, if you plug in a stereo micrphone you get stereo , if you plug in mono one naturally you get momo, but two channels as that's how AHI records.

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Now for the not working part.
When I attempt to record from linein in the AE4 record window, the right channel is noise and the left channel is distorted. Even with the recommended HIFI 16bit Stereo++ mode at 48kHz.


Did I mention Nemo Sound yet?

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Recording works fine with AHIrecord. (Which I have used to verify the driver)


Could be an issue with the level the record process is working at perhaps or that AHIRecord is not play simultaneously? Suggest an issue withthe driver, but hey Nemo Sound is cheap and make it all work.

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When I record a sample with AHIrecord in 16bit AIFF format then this sample plays fine with multiviewer and AmigaAmp. But when import the same sample in AE4 then the sound itself is fine but the progress cursor/line thinks that the sample is about twice as long.


Could be an error in the AIFF header. Certainly AIFFs output by HDRec don't play nice with AE4 as AE4 expects correct files, andHDRec (one version at least didn'y sdet one of the fileds correctly).

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I do not know what dark magic is performed in the drivers written by DW that AE4 apparently works fine with those drivers.


There is no magic at all. The drivers are unaware of AE4 and vice verca.

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Why recording doesn't work within AE4 is also a complete mystery to me. Could be that there are also some hidden DW driver communications to circumvent the limitations of AHI.


No. Ihave seen the source code at both ends of the pipleine and whilst I can't share details due to vearious NDAs I can confirm there's nothing custom goinf on there.

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Be aware that AHIrecorder isn't perfect either. The "Monitor" selection doesn't work at all. It shows the outputs instead of monitor inputs but nothing happens when you select anything in the monitor. I can't see any request being fed to the AHI driver. So maybe AHIrecord makes assumptions or relies on hidden direct driver communication as well.


Monitoring only works for hdausio on the X1k if Nemo Sound is running. If that affects AHIRecord as well I don't know.

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Re: Anyone have success using Audio Evolution 4?
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What machine are you using it on? If X1000 then Lyles Nemo sound utility is extremely benficial (allows proper realtime monitoring without lag etc).

The plugins are added as "inserts" . Each channel should have 3 "grey buttons" in a coulmnat the top. Click one to add a plugin and you will get a window to choose from.. Click again to bring the editor window for that plugin.

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