Who's Online |
80 user(s) are online ( 37 user(s) are browsing Forums)
Members: 2
Guests: 78
zerec, clint,
more...
|
|
|
|
|
Amiga Future!
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 17:06
#132301
|
Just popping in 
|
Just ONE day after Andreas announced the magazine was out, I have just received my copy!! Man, that's what call efficiency. Thanks alot!
Saluditos,
Ferr?n
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: The Memory Protection Debacle
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 17:04
#132302
|
Quite a regular 
|
Quote: Jurassicc wrote:
OS4 has vunerabilities that 3.X didn't and we should be prepared to deal with malware.
On a classic you had to open the case to get at the roms. It can be done with a system friendly script under OS4, even unprotecting said write-protected files. Quote: Rogue wrote:
I am sorry, but this is an absolutely constructed argument. FWIW, the AmigaOS 4 bootloader creates a ROM copy that does nothing but reset the PowerPC and goes to HALT. It's easy to remap the ROM and patch it, or use SetFunction to override functions - as a matter of fact, this is exactly what SetPatch does. And if in doubt, you can just install a ROMTAG with a higher version number.
So this is not a vulnerability of AmigaOS 4.x more than it ever was on 3.x Quote: Jurassicc wrote:
I was thinking something of an option in DOS prefs or Workbench prefs to protect system settings.
Malware or the user would not be able to delete, modify essential system files, allow to write to rdb or remove the slb or alter filesystems. Quote: Rogue wrote:
How would that help? Without memory protection, you cannot protect anything because everything is open.Hi Rogue, Hi Rogue, I guess it's just the "romantic" in me.... I like it the way it was, we'd have the LAST "open" OS. Let's face it, you can't fight virii in any open system anyway* and that's what I was hoping we'd have (an open system). I find it refreshing that even with SMP, STILL MP is not a requirement. Why am I against MP? Because I believe that it's possible to write SW in a no MP environment that isn't possible in an MP enviroment, and barring virii/malware, anything that is made in an MP environment can be done in a non-MP OS. Now imagine AOS4.x-UAE, all the SW has no idea that there is an "outside world". When I sit down to compute, I want to be in "super-user" mode always (no passwords, levels of permisson, etc.).... access to anything, anytime. That is how it was and I don't see any real reason to have it otherwise. Besides, THAT has already been DONE (crappily, I might add). But I have no intention to disturb the (last) ship.... so I'll remain a (quiet) passenger. * Closed "safe" system being, a cellphone, or a dumb data entry/retrieval terminal attached to a mainframe in another location.
|
Support Amiga Fantasy cases!!! How to program: 1. Start with lots and lots of 0's. 10. Add 1's, liberally.  "Details for OS 5 will be made public in the fourth quarter of 2007, ..." - Bill McEwen Whoah!!! He spoke, a bit late.
|
|
|
|
Re: The Memory Protection Debacle
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 16:51
#132303
|
Home away from home 
|
@Rogue Quote: the ability of the Mach kernel to run multiple OSes at the same time. That sound where interesting, and I think it might be where useful, one thing I hope, is that OS4 Mach becomes more Amiga Exec like, and hope most parts of OS4, becomes ported to Amiga Exec mach, so what we get low IPC legacy as possible, I hope mach features be open for any one to use, for PPC VM?s
|
|
(NutsAboutAmiga)
Basilisk II for AmigaOS4
AmigaInputAnywhere
Excalibur
and other tools and apps.
|
|
|
|
Re: The Memory Protection Debacle
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 14:45
#132304
|
Quite a regular
|
@Jurassicc Quote:
Jurassicc wrote:
OS4 has vunerabilities that 3.X didn't and we should be prepared to deal with malware.
On a classic you had to open the case to get at the roms. It can be done with a system friendly script under OS4, even unprotecting said write-protected files.
I am sorry, but this is an absolutely constructed argument. FWIW, the AmigaOS 4 bootloader creates a ROM copy that does nothing but reset the PowerPC and goes to HALT. It's easy to remap the ROM and patch it, or use SetFunction to override functions - as a matter of fact, this is exactly what SetPatch does. And if in doubt, you can just install a ROMTAG with a higher version number. So this is not a vulnerability of AmigaOS 4.x more than it ever was on 3.x Quote: I was thinking something of an option in DOS prefs or Workbench prefs to protect system settings.
Malware or the user would not be able to delete, modify essential system files, allow to write to rdb or remove the slb or alter filesystems. How would that help? Without memory protection, you cannot protect anything because everything is open.
|
|
Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
|
|
|
|
Re: The Memory Protection Debacle
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 14:41
#132305
|
Quite a regular
|
@Atheist Quote:
Atheist wrote:
Besides, this leaves us free with an OS that is game dedicated (very lean), for instance, that other overhead, is it needed for games? Do many people multi-task (run a messageboard, fileshare, render?) when playing NeverWinter Nights or Quake or Everquest?
Well, usually I have MSN and Skype running even while I play. You should not confuse user programs with system programs, though. There are services running that are independent of the game you are running in the foreground. Even on the Amiga this is the case. You don't want to shut down all programs while playing a game - for example, if you have a cron program running in the background, you don't want to be required to shut it down. Again, I would really like to know what it is exactly that you dislike about MP.
|
|
Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
|
|
|
|
Re: The Memory Protection Debacle
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 14:39
#132306
|
Just popping in
|
@Jurassicc Quote:
OS4 has vunerabilities that 3.X didn't and we should be prepared to deal with malware.
On a classic you had to open the case to get at the roms. It can be done with a system friendly script under OS4, even unprotecting said write-protected files.
You try to construct a "new" weak point of OS4 but this was already present in every previous version of AmigaOS. Malware could simply call SetFunction() or patch L:Shell-Seg or L:Disk-Validator or DEVS:AmigaOS ROM Update or DEVS:Kickstart. Now it can also patch/modify/replace SYS:Kickstart. IMHO this is no new stage of vulnerability. Quote:
Malware or the user would not be able to delete, modify essential system files, allow to write to rdb or remove the slb or alter filesystems.
This was always possible and is still possible and IMHO it will be possible in future for years, and as already written, when your paranoia is great enough then do either boot from a write protected medium or use another OS or make backups. One of the basic AmigaOS principles is "The user knows what he does, trust the user and all applications he is starting". When you dont trust yourself, dont start AmigaOS. And BTW IMHO its a failure to trust any other OS that it may be able to protect the user from malware. AFAIK there exists no OS which cant be exploited. So why on earth should AmigaOS which is one of the last OSes which doesnt try what is impossible anyway now start trying to do the impossible? We would only ask for trouble by getting the attraction of malware coders as soon as we would would claim AmigaOS would be secure... Boot from a write protected medium. That is simple. And AmigaOS is one of the few OSes which can actually do that. When you are unable to write protect your hard disk, use the Lock command. But be careful, it may have been hacked. Or use the fs_plugin_crypt module. May be hacked too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: The Memory Protection Debacle
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 14:37
#132307
|
Quite a regular
|
@Atheist Quote:
Atheist wrote:
1) We don't have the CPU (680x0)
We already don't have the CPU right now, and plainly, no one will notice what CPU there is, be it a 680x0, PowerPC, or x86. Old software is emulated. (and before this debate starts again, I don't oppose an x86 port) Quote: 2) We don't have the custom chipset (OCS/ECS/AGA) Not a big loss if you ask me. If you really need it, use UAE, but normally, graphics cards are ultimately more powerful anyway. Quote: 3) and ALSO we lose all old SW (Aminet....whooossshhhh!) Why would we? Did MacOS X loose all MacOS 9 software? Did Windows XP loose all Window 98/3.1 software? No they didn't. At the very least you could still use UAE, but that will not be needed because there will be the possibility to run the old software, just in a virtualized environment, much like, as I pointed out elsewhere, the ability of the Mach kernel to run multiple OSes at the same time. Quote: So, what's the difference between "AOS4.x" and AROS? Oh, besides a quad-core x86 at 2.4 GHz FULL system costing a mere US$1,700???? Apart from the fact that AmigaOS 4.x offers more functionality than AROS, what exactly do you think *should* be different? Support for an old CPU? Instability? I don't think so. Quote: I think a branching is needed... Two versions of AOS4.x, one with MP and resource tracking, and a "fun" one, without. For one thing, branching is not going to happen because it requires almost twice the development resources, and the two branches would be totally incompatible to each other anyway, which would incite an additional split, producing two incompatible lines of software. I don't think that makes sense... Besides, who says that MP takes the fun out of computing? I don't really get that. Quote: I do NOT think those things, but I still think there is a place for the "old ways" and also DON'T believe that SMP is ONLY possible with an MP'd OS. There have to be other ways of doing things, and "Amiga" is ALL about that. Doing it different,... Mac DOESN'T own that one*, sorry. SMP does not have anything to do with MP. SMP is perfectly possible without. However, I still do not get why you think that MP is going to be any sort of hindrance. So far, I haven't seen one single argument against memory protection, mostly because, bluntly put, there is none.
|
|
Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
|
|
|
|
Re: Problem mit dem SFS 1.275
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 13:14
#132308
|
Home away from home
|
@BlackHawk Since the SFS author is german, it should be no problem for him to answer and help. Of course most of the folk around here may not understand german or get a rather poor babelfish translation, so english is preferred. You could also simply write Joerg an eMail or join the mailinglist 
|
|
People are dying.
Entire ecosystems are collapsing.
We are in the beginning of a mass extinction.
And all you can talk about is money and fairytales of eternal economic growth.
How dare you!
– Greta Thunberg
|
|
|
|
Re: AmiTV 0.4 (CX2388X and Bt8x8)
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 13:08
#132309
|
Home away from home
|
@Spirantho Thanks for the explanation...and sorry for the mix up mmmh, ok, will see if i can get a spare receiver to try and test.
|
|
People are dying.
Entire ecosystems are collapsing.
We are in the beginning of a mass extinction.
And all you can talk about is money and fairytales of eternal economic growth.
How dare you!
– Greta Thunberg
|
|
|
|
Re: The Memory Protection Debacle
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 13:04
#132310
|
Not too shy to talk 
|
@TetiSoft Quote:
You are allowed to write-protect files.
Indeed we can but thats not very user friendly. Especially in a future revision of OS4 which may or may not attract new users. OS4 has vunerabilities that 3.X didn't and we should be prepared to deal with malware. On a classic you had to open the case to get at the roms. It can be done with a system friendly script under OS4, even unprotecting said write-protected files. I was thinking something of an option in DOS prefs or Workbench prefs to protect system settings. Malware or the user would not be able to delete, modify essential system files, allow to write to rdb or remove the slb or alter filesystems. While this option is set only things like screenmode, sound prefs etc could be altered, but not nothing that would stop a the amiga booting through to WB. Then you could have to option to restore modified preferences. I know this getting into windows recovery teritory but definatly something worth considering.
|
|
A1XE, A1200T, X1000, X5020, CDTV, CD32 , A500+ A500
OS4.1b / OS3.2b
|
|
|
|
Re: AmiTV 0.4 (CX2388X and Bt8x8)
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 11:58
#132311
|
Quite a regular
|
@Raziel Quote:
Raziel wrote:
@Spirantho
Err, not to sound pesky, but could you (if time allows) comment on #26, please?
I got myself a PCI slot freed and am seriously looking to get a TV card...
If you wanted a reply from me it wasn't a good idea to start the post with "@Chris" in post 26. :) In fact, yes, you need a satellite set-top box with SCART or composite out and you should be just fine. But I can't do satellite decoding myself for the reasons you mentioned. In Britain I imagine a standard Sky box or derivative would work perfectly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Problem mit dem SFS 1.275
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 11:28
#132312
|
Just popping in
|
@Chip
Thanks a lot.
Bye...
Black Hawk
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Have the Wheels Fallen Off? (AId vs. HE)
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 10:03
#132313
|
Not too shy to talk
|
@Mikey_C Dude, too much information! Rude!
|
|
Nissan GTR '08
|
|
|
|
Re: The Memory Protection Debacle
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 9:46
#132314
|
Quite a regular
|
I'd like to expand on what I'm saying...
Basically, because there's two flavors of AOS4.x, then whatever was desired could be done practically freely on the MP/RT version, and just general improvements could be done on the other.
When doing development, it could be done on the MP version, then recompiled for the other when the SW glitches are virtually all gone.
Besides, this leaves us free with an OS that is game dedicated (very lean), for instance, that other overhead, is it needed for games? Do many people multi-task (run a messageboard, fileshare, render?) when playing NeverWinter Nights or Quake or Everquest?
|
Support Amiga Fantasy cases!!! How to program: 1. Start with lots and lots of 0's. 10. Add 1's, liberally. "Details for OS 5 will be made public in the fourth quarter of 2007, ..." - Bill McEwen Whoah!!! He spoke, a bit late.
|
|
|
|
Re: Problem mit dem SFS 1.275
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 9:33
#132315
|
Just popping in
|
@BlackHawk "I hope that it okay am which I for German write, would be on English me too heavy. The problem with the SFS1.275 exists with the Amiga OS 3.9. After that first the instruction "SYS updates on new SFS von Version 1.273 to 1.275 becomes:" no more recognized. It is to be called e.g. not possible the instruction format over the Workbenchleiste, that starts the instruction from the drawer system folds without problems. The second problem is with the new version the non removable disks no longer to format leaves itself. After the high-speed formatting with SFS format or with the format instruction of Amiga OS 3,9 always indicated no valid DOS disk present is. Hope that the problem to solve is." At least usable. 
|
A1-XE/G4@933+Radeon7500/64MB, A1200BPPC+BVision
AmigaOS4 on both of course.
|
|
|
|
Problem mit dem SFS 1.275
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 9:20
#132316
|
Just popping in
|
Hallo, ich hoffe das es okay ist das ich auf deutsch schreibe, auf englisch w?re mir das zu heavy. Das Problem mit dem SFS1.275 besteht beim Amiga OS 3.9. Nach dem updaten auf das neue SFS von Version 1.273 auf 1.275 wird zun?chst die Angabe "SYS:" nicht mehr erkannt. Es ist z. B. nicht m?glich den Befehl Format ?ber die Workbenchleiste aufzurufen, das starten des Befehls aus der Schublade System klappt ohne Probleme. Das zweite Problem ist das sich bei der neuen Version die Festplatten nicht mehr formatieren lassen. Nach dem Schnellformatieren mit SFSFormat oder mit dem Formatbefehl von Amiga OS 3.9 wird immer angezeigt das keine g?ltige DOS Disk vorhanden ist. Hoffe das das Problem zu l?sen ist. Ciao... Black Hawk
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: AmiTV 0.4 (CX2388X and Bt8x8)
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 8:20
#132317
|
Home away from home
|
@Spirantho Err, not to sound pesky, but could you (if time allows) comment on #26, please? I got myself a PCI slot freed and am seriously looking to get a TV card... Thanks a lot
|
|
People are dying.
Entire ecosystems are collapsing.
We are in the beginning of a mass extinction.
And all you can talk about is money and fairytales of eternal economic growth.
How dare you!
– Greta Thunberg
|
|
|
|
Re: The Memory Protection Debacle
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 8:16
#132318
|
Just popping in
|
@Jurassicc Quote:
Will anything be done to automatically, without user
intervention, protect kickstart modules / startup-sequences
etc. Perhaps at the DOS level against malware.
You are allowed to write-protect files. When you think thats not enough, you are allowed to boot from write-protected media. When you want to protect kickstart modules in memory, OS4 already write protects the code and read-only data/bss sections of them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: The Memory Protection Debacle
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 8:12
#132319
|
Home away from home
|
@TetiSoft Well, for a "mainly font guy" you are one hell of help on the OS4 ml. Thanks for all the bugfixes and/or feature requests you dragged further on the beta list/bugtracker. VERY much appreciated, thanks a lot @thread Err...yes i want one
|
|
People are dying.
Entire ecosystems are collapsing.
We are in the beginning of a mass extinction.
And all you can talk about is money and fairytales of eternal economic growth.
How dare you!
– Greta Thunberg
|
|
|
|
Re: The Memory Protection Debacle
|
Posted on: 2007/9/5 8:07
#132320
|
Just popping in
|
@samwel Quote:
Yes, better/larger USB support would indeed be wanted.
I think this is tetisofts part.
I worked on USB just because the expert developers in this area didnt have enough time and I wanted to get some bugs fixed. I dont have the feeling to be responsible for the USB stack. In fact I have no (completely stable) working USB hardware My main goal was to allow OS4 to boot from USB, it does it now, like it can boot from floppy or RESRAD: or BOOTRAD:. The part where I really feel responsible for is the font system.
|
|
|
|
|
News feed
OS4 Feedback forum
OS4Depot Feedback forum
Amigabounty forum
OpenAmiga forum
AmiCygnix forum
ABC shell forum
AmiKit forum
Cinnamon Writer forum
CodeBench forum
Digital Universe forum
Dopus 5 forum
E-UAE forum
Gnash forum
Ibrowse forum
JAmiga forum
Odyssey forum
OWB forum
Qt forum
SmartFileSystem forum
Timberwolf forum
TouchDevice forum
TuneNet forum
Unsatisfactory Software forum
