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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
Just popping in
Joined:
2007/6/5 15:49
Posts: 40
@rogue

+1 !!!!

Absolutely witin your opinion.

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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
Guest_
Quote:
So far, there has been no change of plan in what will entail 4.2, so I don't really see where that path is not clear enough. I also don't see why people try to draw negative vibes out the Warp3D announcement. It just adds something that you didn't even expect to get before.


Exactly, from your standpoint. From user standpoint I don`t recall we even know what constitutes OS 4.2.

If a delay has been made, about time near of promised, just say project is ongoing but will be delayed for six months or so.

RadeonHD Warp3D driver might be giving what wasnt expected (so it might be seen as bonus) but as far as it doesnt support existing cards bundled with AmigaOne systems, its an upgrade requirement, not support.

Is it really so hard to both support existing and make path towards future?

Thanks to Trevor and Hyperion, but still there is a room for improvement, so out of criticism, what should be seen as positive criticism could be taken into account.

Also, LibreOffice port deserves really some more room and clearance.

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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
Home away from home
Joined:
2007/5/19 14:23
From England
Posts: 3553
@Rogue
Thanks for clearing-up my non-understanding

Quote:
I also don't see why people try to draw negative vibes out the Warp3D announcement.

I think there are two kinds of "negative vibes" in this case:

1. The majority of cases being simple *disappointment* they might not get Warp3D for their (very common) 4xxx card, and a bit puzzled as to why. Hopefully they are not shocked, just a bit surprised (and temporarily annoyed despite never being promised it), and will get over it.

2. A tiny tiny minority (typically with no genuine interest in OS4) jumping to the conclusion that this means Gallium3D+Mesa has been cancelled or heavily delayed. Apart from brief assurances that this is not the case, I think you can ignore this.

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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
Guest_
Quote:
1. The majority of cases being simple *disappointment* they might not get Warp3D for their (very common) 4xxx card, and a bit puzzled as to why. Hopefully they are not shocked, just a bit surprised (and temporarily annoyed despite never being promised it), and will get over it.


.... Hmmm ... am I wrong when I do read Over The Rainbow announcement where 3D support is promised for 1000 series of card and 4000 and driver was sold as such Warp3D promise later?

http://www.a-eon.com/?news=25-06-2012

Quote:
In addition to the HD4000 (R700) graphics drivers released with the AmigaONE X1000 “First Contact” system, we have now contracted Hans to create a series of drivers for the RadeonHD family. This also includes support for Evergreen, Northern Islands and the recently released Southern Islands HD7000 series. These new drivers, which are exclusively licensed to A-EON Technology, will support the X1300-1950, 5000, 6000 & 7000 series RadeonHD graphics cards and provide AmigaOS 4 with access to the latest in graphic card technology.



3D is never mentioned here, but kind of rethorical question is 2D support only real driver?

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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
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Joined:
2006/12/4 21:53
From www.amigakit.com
Posts: 519
There are limited funds for drivers, A-EON is now being run as a business where every cost needs to be balanced and funds targetted to future/available technology. The Radeon HD 4000 series is not available in mainstream retail for the last six months and is no longer manufactured. 5000 and 6000 series are now the standard cards and they will feature in future A-EON projects and therefore software support is critical.

In order to push the business forward, resources need to be allocated to products that will pay for their development in the longer term - otherwise A-EON cannot be self-sustainable in the long run as a commercial enterprise.

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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
Quite a regular
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From Dunedin, New Zealand
Posts: 868
Nicely put Amigakit, generally obvious to most of us

I'll support all the Team players while I still walk the ground :)

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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
Just can't stay away
Joined:
2006/12/9 10:44
From Lyon, France
Posts: 1337
@vox
Quote:
Is it really so hard to both support existing and make path towards future?

When you have 200 developers, it's not a problem.
Do you think we have all these developers?

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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
Home away from home
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From England
Posts: 3553
@vox
I can't speak for A-Eon/Hyperion/etc, but based upon what has been publically revealed, I believe the following is true:

Quote:
am I wrong when I do read Over The Rainbow announcement where 3D support is promised for 1000 series of card and 4000 and driver was sold as such Warp3D promise later?


I don't see any mention of 3D in that announcement. However, I believe that Hyperion has promised modern 3D support using Gallium3D+Mesa for AmigaOS4.2, and that for this to work it needs the updated Radeon HD drivers written by Hans. Otherwise the 3D drivers cannot get access to the Radeon HD card & co-exist with the 2D stuff.

Quote:
3D is never mentioned here, but kind of rethorical question is 2D support only real driver?

The new Radeon HD drivers provide *2D* support, but allow 3D to be implemented. AmigaOS4.2 will provide 3D via Gallium3D+Mesa. It MIGHT be the case that the Radeon HD drivers were described as "supporting 3D", but if that was the case then I think they only meant it allowed 3D to be implemented NOT that it would provide 3D on it's own.

In this context, the Warp3D driver for 5xxx/6xxx cards is merely a *bonus*. One which A-Eon is funding. I don't know if the Warp3D driver was always planned, and A-Eon is merely speeding-up their development (like they did with the Radeon HD driver), or whether it would not have happened at all without their funding.

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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
Guest_

While that can be a rationale of why and how, this is kind of point why we feel like left in the dark ...

What I can understand is simply ...

AmigaOS 4.1 will be used some more, since OS 4.2 has unknown ETA, so its good to have more Warp3D drivers since Gallium is away.

Original 2D RadeonHD driver was developed for all RadeonHD cards.

Now, instead of having 3D for RadeonHD 4000 series used in SAM 460ex and X1000 we are expected to buy better cards OR wait for AmigaOS 4.2 Gallium that should have 3D support for 4000 cards, but that is also not given as clear information.

So its sounds like a lose-lose solution unless some newer hardware needs to be introduced using 5000 and 6000 cards meanwhile and OS 4.2 will be quite delayed.

That kind of driver would not have a use, unless situation is as described.

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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
Guest_

Quote:
When you have 200 developers ...


Understood, but why having Warp3D driver for cards that are currently not used by any AmigaNG system vs cards that are used?

It would be understandable for Gallium 3D support.

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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
Home away from home
Joined:
2007/1/26 21:48
From New Zealand
Posts: 2310
Quote:

ChrisH wrote:
Quote:
3D is never mentioned here, but kind of rethorical question is 2D support only real driver?

The new Radeon HD drivers provide *2D* support, but allow 3D to be implemented. AmigaOS4.2 will provide 3D via Gallium3D+Mesa. It MIGHT be the case that the Radeon HD drivers were described as "supporting 3D", but if that was the case then I think they only meant it allowed 3D to be implemented NOT that it would provide 3D on it's own.


They were described as being "ready for 3D" precisely to make it clear that they were still 2D drivers.

Quote:
In this context, the Warp3D driver for 5xxx/6xxx cards is merely a *bonus*. One which A-Eon is funding. I don't know if the Warp3D driver was always planned, and A-Eon is merely speeding-up their development (like they did with the Radeon HD driver), or whether it would not have happened at all without their funding.


Exactly. I don't think that Warp3D drivers for Radeon HD cards would have happened without A-EON funding it. The focus has been on porting MESA+Gallium, and that work has been ongoing for a while.

Hans

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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
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@vox
Quote:

vox wrote:

Quote:
When you have 200 developers ...


Understood, but why having Warp3D driver for cards that are currently not used by any AmigaNG system vs cards that are used?


Firstly, 5000 and 6000 series ARE being used on NG systems. People have bought them along with the updated driver. Sure, there are probably more 4000 series users (currently), but they are being used.

The reason why the Warp3D drivers are being developed for 5000 and 6000 series first has already been explained in this thread, twice. First Rogue said:
Quote:
The point in supporting the current HD5xxx and HD6xxx is simply because these cards can still be obtained from a normal store.


Then Amigakit said:
Quote:
There are limited funds for drivers, A-EON is now being run as a business where every cost needs to be balanced and funds targetted to future/available technology. The Radeon HD 4000 series is not available in mainstream retail for the last six months and is no longer manufactured. 5000 and 6000 series are now the standard cards and they will feature in future A-EON projects and therefore software support is critical.

In order to push the business forward, resources need to be allocated to products that will pay for their development in the longer term - otherwise A-EON cannot be self-sustainable in the long run as a commercial enterprise.



Now, A-EON said the following in their announcement:
Quote:
Older series support will be assessed dependent on user demand.

So, you want 4000 series Warp3D drivers too? Are you prepared to contribute financially to make it happen? If so, then let A-EON know. With enough demand, it could happen. This is something that could work as a Kickstarter project.

Hans

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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
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@Hans Quote:
So, you want 4000 series Warp3D drivers too? Are you prepared to contribute financially to make it happen? If so, then let A-EON know. With enough demand, it could happen. This is something that could work as a Kickstarter project.

IMHO it is difficult to know whether it would be contributing to a (hypothetical) Kickstarter project for 4000 series Warp3D drivers UNLESS we know how long the wait for the Gallium3D stuff is. i.e. Long wait = contribute, but Short wait = no contribute.

But I doubt Hyperion will be giving out that info (assuming they even know for sure how long it will take) until it is basically finished anyway. Catch 22, kinda.

EDIT: Fixed typo ("wait" not "way").


Edited by ChrisH on 2012/10/31 18:24:09
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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
Amigans Defender
Joined:
2006/11/26 23:16
From Canada
Posts: 986
Quote:

IMHO it is difficult to know whether it would be contributing to a (hypothetical) Kickstarter project for 4000 series Warp3D drivers UNLESS we know how long the way for the Gallium3D stuff is. i.e. Long wait = contribute, but Short wait = no contribute.

But I doubt Hyperion will be giving out that info (assuming they even know for sure how long it will take) until it is basically finished anyway. Catch 22, kinda.

I'll probably be shot dead for saying this but... wouldn't it be a lot cheaper and easier if you guys just purchased newer graphics cards?

I know. Crazy talk.

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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
Guest_

Surely the easiest way is to just get the new cards.

From one point of view - it is advancement that finally a recent and avail gfx cards will be used.

But, even it is a bonus, leaving RadeonHD 4000 series users without any 3D until Gallium is not nice. In fact it means they will be stuck with 2D until OS 4.2. It is kind of quite unfair to them, as RadeonHD driver was ment to bring 3D also.

If RadeonHD driver was ment to be payable standalone product until OS 4.2 certainly this move narrows its audience.

But anyway, both newer RadeonHD driver and LibreOffice are just announced. As anything here, when its done.

However, leaving RadeonHD users behind will surely be on some kind of minuses list


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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
Home away from home
Joined:
2007/1/26 21:48
From New Zealand
Posts: 2310
Quote:

ChrisH wrote:
@Hans Quote:
So, you want 4000 series Warp3D drivers too? Are you prepared to contribute financially to make it happen? If so, then let A-EON know. With enough demand, it could happen. This is something that could work as a Kickstarter project.

IMHO it is difficult to know whether it would be contributing to a (hypothetical) Kickstarter project for 4000 series Warp3D drivers UNLESS we know how long the way for the Gallium3D stuff is. i.e. Long wait = contribute, but Short wait = no contribute.


To be brutally blunt, if a hypothetical Kickstarter project couldn't reach the needed threshold, then there would be no point in anyone (including A-EON) "risking" funding the development of a Radeon HD 4000 series driver. The question of "is it worth the money, or should I just wait for Gallium" isn't going to go away whether it's paid up-front (i.e., kickstarter), or later (when the driver is ready and available).

Hans


P.S., Given how unpredictable software development is, I'm not sure that a Gallium3D time estimate would be much use.

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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
Quite a regular
Joined:
2008/3/11 8:29
From Dunedin, New Zealand
Posts: 868
As a consequence of Testing I have ended up with 5 x 48xx series cards and one 7970, neither of which are going to get these drivers (at the moment) - surely its not that much of a stretch to get a 5xxx or 6xxx card if you really want to use this feature? It doesn't really matter what the point of the debate you are basing your stance on, consider this:

We are in this (AmigaOS movement) together, As you know this isn't the PC world of Win7 or the Apple world of the Mac, this is of course Niche City Ground Level One! We are lucky we are even part of this (Most of us afterall are riding on other peoples coattails) I think we Just need to help out when we can (and not complain about the small things which are givens in the other computer realms) to get something we want or just wait and use an alternative if there... try not to think of things as being in the dark it's not really like that, things will be stated when its time, It's not like it was some years ago when we in the dark for over a decade due to nothing happening at all...

Lastly

Have some faith, we aren't being mislead and we aren't going to be abandoned, this is happening, you are alive and this is great! The people in charge actually do care, now jump on and hold on! =)

Take Care and Enjoy!


Edited by Slayer on 2012/10/30 8:37:18
_________________
~Yes I am a Kiwi, No, I did not appear as an extra in 'Lord of the Rings'~
1x AmigaOne X5000 2.0GHz 2gM RadeonR9280X AOS4.x
3x AmigaOne X1000 1.8GHz 2gM RadeonHD7970 AOS4.x
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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
Quite a regular
Joined:
2006/11/24 17:14
Posts: 624
Quote:

vox wrote:

If a delay has been made, about time near of promised, just say project is ongoing but will be delayed for six months or so.


Please lose the word "promised". I hate it that people always try to put it as if we promised something and didn't make it. We don't make promises. We have release plans that might or might not make it. There is a difference between that and a promise.

About announcing delays, most people don't do it since any release date is a guess at best.

Quote:
RadeonHD Warp3D driver might be giving what wasnt expected (so it might be seen as bonus) but as far as it doesnt support existing cards bundled with AmigaOne systems, its an upgrade requirement, not support.


Whoever said it was support? Nobody claimed that. It's not even a Hyperion project, and as such, doesn't have anything to do with AmigaOS.


Quote:
Is it really so hard to both support existing and make path towards future?


You have no idea.

Quote:
Thanks to Trevor and Hyperion, but still there is a room for improvement, so out of criticism, what should be seen as positive criticism could be taken into account.


You are mistaken. There is no room.

Quote:
Also, LibreOffice port deserves really some more room and clearance.


What about "X is porting Y" needs clearance? Release date? Not going to happen. System Requirements? Too early. What do you expect, seriously?

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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
Quite a regular
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2006/11/24 17:14
Posts: 624
Quote:

vox wrote:

3D is never mentioned here, but kind of rethorical question is 2D support only real driver?


3D is never mentioned because this announcement was about 2D drivers. Do you think those write themselves, especially with things like Compositing in the graphics kernel?

But that is the poinr. You are drawing conclusions that aren't there, there is explicitly no mention of 3D.

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Re: AmiWest 2012 News?
Quite a regular
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2006/11/24 17:14
Posts: 624
Hans has basically already said everything there is to be said about this. It was clear from the word go that the subset of cards that could be supported by the drivers are limited. The 4000 is almost impossible to buy now, they may be on E-Bay, but a new 5xxx costs you somewhere in the 20-30 Euro range, so seriously, that was not even worth considering.

There are some subtle and some not-so-subtle differences in the older and newer cards. If we had picked the older cards for support, then the current discussion would revolve around the keywords:

"Outdated"
"Unable to obtain"
"But I don't have one"
"Why not 5000/6000"

This way, they just revolve around other keywords.

Saying that no one uses 5000/6000 is wrong, they are probably equally much used as the 4000. You'll be able to get one for a mere 20-30 Euros.

Seriously, can we put this discussion to rest? No ranting will change the fact. The drivers will support the Evergreen series; adapting them to other cards is going to be work that might not be worth the effort. The Warp3D drivers will come out "as is", if you have a 4000 and don't want to upgrade, fine, you'll have to wait for 4.2.

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