Don't get me wrong, however, I don't agree with keeping things needlessly complicated for the sake of it, but just because Windows and other OSes don't have a menu strip doesn't mean it's going to make a user not choose AmigaOS as a platform. If an operator is open to using another platform, there are far bigger issues to deal with than having to remember that there's a menu on a file requester. Like "where's my 'Start' button?" or "Which one is my C: drive?"
Agreed. Even locating the menus themselves within Workbench or any application can be a source of confusion for a "non-Amigan" - as it is not immediately obvious that there are menus available, until you are told that holding the right mouse button down reveals them.
None of these problems are unique to AmigaOS - show somebody RISC OS and they will also be struggling with the file requesters and the lack of obvious menus.
The issue here is that most people know Windows, and if it doesn't work like Windows they won't know what to do. I daresay they struggled with Windows too until they were shown; where I work we rolled out PCs with MS Office and nothing else, to a userbase who largely had never used a computer before. Believe me when I say Windows is no more intuitive than AmigaOS to these sort of users, even click-dragging and the tab key have an air of mystery and complication.
Just to be noted that displaying icons or thumbnails doesn't necessarily have to slow down anything, when done properly. By properly, i mean that it should be done in a low priority thread, running asynchronously to the main requester context once scan is done. That way, you get all files displayed blazingly fast first, and then you add icons and all kind of stuff (optionally, for those who hate icons or thumbnails) in the visible area.
Filer actually does that (at least for thumbnails & default icons), so I'm not sure exactly why it *feels* slower. It may simply be because it's jarring to see a list of files shown one way, and then then how they look changes later once they have been scanned.
Loading actual icons should be pretty quick, so showing those would probably be OK. But creating thumbnails & deciding on default icons is a relatively slow process - although could maybe be quicker if the OS had a shared cache (like I presume Windows has).
You cannot just tell these people, "Learn the OS!"
Why not?
Quote:
First, UIs should work in the same way regardless of platform, so as the user feels comfortable with them.
So why do we bother with different platforms then? Sheesh!
Seriously, I really dislike how this "most users" argument is used to ruin everything I like about using computers. The same thing going on on Linux, it just gets worse and worse, more and more like Windows - the appearant measure point for everything "user friendly". I find it absurd.
Seriously, I really dislike how this "most users" argument is used to ruin everything I like about using computers. The same thing going on on Linux, it just gets worse and worse, more and more like Windows - the appearant measure point for everything "user friendly". I find it absurd.
---
Yeah it really is absurd, since when has Windows been considered user-friendly.
trixie quote:
You cannot just tell these people, "Learn the OS!"
--
Of course you can, look how many tutorials Apple has available on their website there are literally hundreds.
As trixie say, we of course want to make ASL slow, boring, unusable crap. No need all those comparies with anything. Everyone there want to have good, friendly and fast os. What and how do linux and windows, it's problems of linux and windows.
Trixie try to point for you and others about real live. About lazy users. About new blood and alt , which can give aos4 some popularity (maybe). But while some users will stack on that stuff like "learn os! you all lame !" - then it way to die.
@djrikki
Realisation of win, it's realisation of win. Trixie point (not one time) in that thread, that we not about change ASL to make it like on windows.
Btw, did you have amigaos4 yourself ? (because if not, then strange how you can say what is good or bad in ASL).
Yeah it really is absurd, since when has Windows been considered user-friendly
Windows XP has probably not been considered user-friendly since people saw Mac OS X... (Not that I think Apple get everything right!)
I think the point Kolla was trying to make is that people find things easy when it is similar to what they know... This is NOT the same as "user friendly", but many people do mistake it for that. So something is not AUTOMATICALLY bad, just because someone unfamiliar with the Amiga ways of doing things can't work something out! (It could still be bad, but we can't say so from only that kind of evidence.)
i.e. We should not copy Windows just for the sake of it. Yes it will make it easier for people to use the Amiga, but when you end-up with a Windows clone why bother? Linux has to struggle with the same question (initially their goal seemed to be to clone Window's GUI, but they now seem to realise that they need to come-up with better ways.)
Deciding if something is "user friendly" or not is VERY hard. But there are guidelines that some clever people have devised. For example: User Interface Design for Programmers
Linux has to struggle with the same question (initially their goal seemed to be to clone Window's GUI, but they now seem to realise that they need to come-up with better ways.)
That really irks me about Linux - a lot of the open source developers seem intent on creating a Windows clone, or clones of Microsoft applicatons. They should be trying to create something with a sensible, logical user interface, not copying a bad one and trying to shoe-horn extra features into the same layout.
Trixie try to point for you and others about real live. About lazy users. About new blood and alt , which can give aos4 some popularity (maybe). But while some users will stack on that stuff like "learn os! you all lame !" - then it way to die.
And you think this will happen just by making the OS "familiar" to "most users"?
First of all, it is _very_ unlikely that AmigaOS atracts more users at all, at this stage it is more a matter of keeping the current user base than anything else - and you do not do that by alienating them.
Secondly - people grow fond of a platform not because it is familiar, but because it is different.
Thirdly - why do you want new users of the type that are so ignorant that they cannot deal with the AmigaOS way of doing things? Exactly what do you hope this demographic group has to offer to the platform? Money?
Quote:
Btw, did you have amigaos4 yourself ? (because if not, then strange how you can say what is good or bad in ASL).
I have OS4.0 on my CSPPC, and I had plans to buy a machine with OS4.1 once one is made that I find worth buying, which has yet to happen. SAM460 could be it. In the mean time, as I read about OS4 development, I find it less and less tempting to put money into, as I see all sorts of nonsense fluff implemented, and very little done to the big underlying problems in the OS.
As it appears that the actual topic of conversation is now finished (and the thread wandering into different areas) it's probably worth locking this to prevent the main part of the thread from being further diluted. So far the first 3 pages are very useful feedback.
If there are no more on-topic posts within the next few hours, it will be locked for preservation.
Simon
Comments made in any post are personal opinion, and are in no-way representative of any commercial entity unless specifically stated as such. ---- http://codebench.co.uk
I agree with you too partially. But why do we focus so much on the term of ASL-file requester and that it should not be allowed to have menus by the GUI paradigms. Let's rename it to ASL-file selector
As you rightfully pointed to the Windows F2 case, it implies IMHO that there has to be changes to make things better. And personally I think it's a good idea to hide not so ofter used options behind a menu even on a file requester/selector, by contrast to have it's window cluttered with tens of buttons.
So I can't think of another way than people learning the differences of different OSes. Otherwise we would only copy the main OS out there. The function of MacOS X to copy and paste everywhere, or to drag and drop images from the browser to the desktop, is quite logical to me, but others, especially users coming from windows, don't share my idea..
I see this becoming an interesting thread, also because the community participates and may influence decisions of the developers. I don't see this happen on MS or Apple's forums so much..
Amigo1 wrote: I agree with you too partially. But why do we focus so much on the term of ASL-file requester and that it should not be allowed to have menus by the GUI paradigms. Let's rename it to ASL-file selector
While on the subject of menus in ASL, there have been points raised that "Windows" load/save requesters do not have menus, which is true in the traditional sense. Here on XP, I can right-click on the requester and get a context menu, which allows all sorts of second level functionality.
With AmigaOS 4, the menustrip attached can appear anywhere on the screen if the option is selected (like Magic Menus of old), so I fail to see the real difference here. I guess this only applies to those that are using the Windows requesters as a comparison.
So far in this thread, it seems there is an overwhelming need to allow a programmable gadget which allows the user to select a string from a given list in the Save requester. This option can certainly be given enough thought as it is apparently warranted, but I'm really not convinced on any of the other discussion topics. Not yet anyway :)
Anyway, keep up the good posts, and let's not lose those in off-topic talk. Ta!
Simon
Comments made in any post are personal opinion, and are in no-way representative of any commercial entity unless specifically stated as such. ---- http://codebench.co.uk
Rigo wrote: As it appears that the actual topic of conversation is now finished (and the thread wandering into different areas) it's probably worth locking this to prevent the main part of the thread from being further diluted. So far the first 3 pages are very useful feedback.
If there are no more on-topic posts within the next few hours, it will be locked for preservation.
Simon
Then please let me add; IMHO it should stay almost as it is, with menus and fast and also an _option_ to have a preview for images, handy if this option could be turned on/off with a button.
saimo wrote: * please, please, give me the option to enter directories with a single click as it was in the old times (can't repeat this enough)!
It was removed for reasons of consistancy. Elsewhere in the OS the procedure is to highlight objects with a single-click, and select them with a double-click. By selecting a directory, to specify you want to enter it. By highlighting it, you specify you want to perform an action on it (like rename or delete).
For this reason, I don't foresee it returning anytime soon.
There have been some valid discussions here though, and it's nice to see what the users think, and to see them discussing things which can ultimately improve the system.
Simon
I don't know how many "valid discussions" regarding this specific issue there are, but for sure one was started exactly by me - sadly, I can't find it at the moment and I can't repeat again in detail all the reasons I provided back then (and that went unchallenged, in the end). Anyways, in brief... I do understand the consistency remark, but please consider that in the specific context of a file requester (which is principally meant to navigate filesystems to select files/directories), the highlighting possibility is rarely useful and it's not that Earth-shattering giving the user the *option* to skip that and perform the actions file requesters are made for more quickly and comfortably. I'm not asking for the single-click navigation to be the only or the default behaviour, just to be an alternative (which, moreover, is trivial to implement).
By the way, since we're at it, please start considering that for consistency and increased user-friendliness of the system, the solution could be also the other way around - i.e. giving the possibility to the user of manipulating objects in other contexts with a single click
By the way, since we're at it, please start considering that for consistency and increased user-friendliness of the system, the solution could be also the other way around - i.e. giving the possibility to the user of manipulating objects in other contexts with a single click
I must admit, I can't think of a single instance where breaking that consistency would be beneficial. The only reason people are hanging on to this single-click-to-enter-directories in ASL is because that's how it was, and people have got used to that. So much so, that it feels natural, but that is just a matter of accustomisation. It doesn't mean it's right.
Simon
Comments made in any post are personal opinion, and are in no-way representative of any commercial entity unless specifically stated as such. ---- http://codebench.co.uk
I must admit, I can't think of a single instance where breaking that consistency would be beneficial. The only reason people are hanging on to this single-click-to-enter-directories in ASL is because that's how it was, and people have got used to that. So much so, that it feels natural, but that is just a matter of accustomisation. It doesn't mean it's right.
Simon
The advantages are those I expressly mentioned in my previous post: speed and comfort. It has nothing to do with hanging on to the past. I find it a lot quicker and more comfortable to enter directories with a single click, and others could feel the same. Also, please note that while comfort is rather subjective, speed is not: nobody on Earth can double-click faster than he/she can click
As for breaking the consistency, I certainly wasn't suggesting that: I was hinting at giving more freedom throughout the system by means of more control options. For example, if our dear Workbench had proper and comprehensive RMB controls (context menus, extended drag & drop and so on), how many times would one really need to just select a drawer or even a file? Renaming, copying, moving, retrieving information, etc. could all be done by means of an RMB action, while entering drawers and opening files could be done by means of a single click. For clarity, I'm not suggesting to make this the only/default behaviour: just to give the user the option. Moreover, it goes without saying that this interaction model I'm talking about requires some serious planning and a certain deal of work, and also that it would be better to reserve it for a future rewrite of the Workbench, given that the current implementation is notoriously a dead end. For now, I'd just be happy to have a checkbox in the ASL prefs with the label "single-click navigation" attached to it (actually, it would rock even more if it were a cycle gadget showing the labels "double-click", "single-click directories", "single-click files and directories")
Edited by saimo on 2010/7/15 8:52:00 Edited by saimo on 2010/7/15 8:52:38
I prefer the way delete and create dir is implemented in workbench than in now ASL.
Create dir in Workbench : you can choose if you want an info file and, main, the unnamed string is 'selectionned' (I think that the text of this request window can be simplified too).
Rename in ASL is strange now (in Amigaland of course) : first time I don't understand that edit is in 'line'.
So far in this thread, it seems there is an overwhelming need to allow a programmable gadget which allows the user to select a string from a given list in the Save requester.
This certainly is top priority, as selecting from a list of file formats is far too common a need.
sorry, i dont had the time to read the complete thread but i think there should be a thumbnail-mode - this way you dont have to remind you the name of the photo you want to upload to myspace, facebook, whatever.
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