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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Quite a regular
Joined:
2010/3/28 15:03
From None
Posts: 698
@freddix

Thanks, I'll wait your final version of AmiDark because the nformation I have a good book about the aircrarts in the spanish civil war, the other point were I begin is to sprite design, I think that the straight lines is more easy to draw than persons, animals, etc. and now I have to make all for my projects.

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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Just popping in
Joined:
2006/11/27 21:56
From Copenhagen
Posts: 104
@carvedeye

'Game coding for beginners': Does that mean you want to learn how to program or that you know how to program but wish to learn about writing games?

If it is the second case and you feel comfortable with C/C++ by all means wait for AmiDark or use SDL/OpenGL/what ever will match your requirements. Visit sites like http://www.gamedev.net and other game related sites to find articles on anything from good and simple data structures to hardcore rendering techniques.

BUT..

If it is the first case then my advise would be to start really slow and ignore all the people who tell you to use C/C++, OpenGL, AmiDark Engine. You will get into trouble with pointers, pointers to pointers, array indexing and all kinds of other thing which can go wrong, which will make your progress slow and frustrating.

Start with an interpreted language like python (pygame) or hollywood or well create your game in flash just to get an idea of what is required. I would even suggest you use a Windows pc, if you have one, and try to use GameMaker (http://yoyogames.com/gamemaker) and go through their tutorials. Once you learn more about programming and creating games you rewrite your game for Amiga.

Forgot about 3D and start out by doing 2D only.

Take baby steps and iterate alot:
1. iteration: Open window
2. iteration: draw square in window
3. iteration: move square to the left
.
.
100. iteration: replace square by airplane sprite
and so on, and on

Iterations are import, which again talks in favour of an interpreted language where you dont need to wait 10 minutes for the compiler, discover stupid spelling error, fix error and wait an other 10 minutes for the compiler to finish or report more errors.

Never forgot that it is your game that is important, dont get side tracked by "cool technology", stay focused on the game.

And dont forgot to have fun while creating your game.

Enough ranting. Happy coding.

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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Quite a regular
Joined:
2008/11/3 12:06
From South France
Posts: 763
@Shadow
Quote:
If it is the first case then my advise would be to start really slow and ignore all the people who tell you to use C/C++, OpenGL, AmiDark Engine. You will get into trouble with pointers, pointers to pointers, array indexing and all kinds of other thing which can go wrong, which will make your progress slow and frustrating.

Diiiinnnnggg !!! Bad answer ...
It's where you're wrong ...
When in AmiDARK Engine you use :
DESetDisplayMode( 640, 480, 32 );
DESetWindowOff();
DELoadObject( "FileName", 1 );
... Where are pointers ? AmiDARK Engine open the file, load the data, store them in memory and you have NOTHING TO DO RELATED TO POINTERS
These 3 lines open a window, jump in fullscreen mode and load a 3D model ( at position 0, 0, 0 ) Can you propose an easier solution for beginners ?

Using GDK like AmiDARK Engine make game development MUCH EASIER even in C !!!
Did you really look the CODE sample I've added upper ?

Quote:
Start with an interpreted language like python (pygame) or hollywood or well create your game in flash just to get an idea of what is required. I would even suggest you use a Windows pc, if you have one, and try to use GameMaker

Once again ... Why sending people to PC ?
And once again, AmiDARK Engine is EASIER than Python !!!!

Before redirecting people to other OS for learning "development" ... you should try to learn yourself the solutions available on OUR platform "Amiga" ;)

Kindest Regards,
AmiDARK.
http://www.amidark-engine.com

_________________
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.
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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Just can't stay away
Joined:
2006/11/24 17:54
From Sanremo
Posts: 1854
How can you say that Hollywood is slow for make games when that software is born (imho) for making games?.. Until now we only see simple games..

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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Just can't stay away
Joined:
2006/11/24 17:54
From Sanremo
Posts: 1854
@freddix

i agree with you, i prefer using AmiDarkEngine, instead of learning a new language and starting from scratch.. with AmiDarkEngine i can use my knowledge of C and AmiDarkEngine functions to create a game..

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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Just popping in
Joined:
2006/11/27 21:56
From Copenhagen
Posts: 104
@freddix

AmiDark is a C API, correct my if I am wrong?

Yes it is easy to open windows, and load objects, but who is managing these objects and destroying them again?

You have to manage your game state some way or another and if you write your game using AmiDark, then you need to do your state management in C!

Using AmiDark you would create an struct representing the player, the struct would contain a pointer to one or more objects loaded by AmiDark, the struct would contain a health integer and other stuff.

Before you know it, you want to manage multiple enemies, then you create an array pointing to structures containing information about the enemy.

Using AmiDark all of this has to be done in C, which is really really dangerous for an inexperienced programmer.

Just have a look at some of your ealier post to this forum and read how much you were struggling in the begining of your project.

I dont want to send people to other platforms, but if you want to start to learn programming and game creation then C has a very steep learing curve, which can be a motivation killer.

I am an engine programmer and have so far released 3 games for xbox360 and I know game programmers who hates C, because of long compilations times, which simply kills fast interations. They only worked in our own scripting language. Which in the editor was interpreted and compiled really fast. In game mode the scripting language was ofcourse compiled native to the platform to get maximum performance.

My point is, if have not programmed before, dont start by learning C, learn something else, get an understanding of software development and then learn C and other languages.

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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Just popping in
Joined:
2006/11/27 21:56
From Copenhagen
Posts: 104
@nubechecorre

Exactly, you only know C, no problem then, which I also stated in my first post.

My point is if you dont know C, then you are in for a hard and bumpy trip.

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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Quite a regular
Joined:
2008/11/3 12:06
From South France
Posts: 763
@Shadow
Wow ! You're a god a coding rulez !!!
Quote:

Yes it is easy to open windows, and load objects, but who is managing these objects and destroying them again?

Diiiinnnnggg !!! Bad answer ...
It's somewhere else where you're wrong ...

AmiDARK Engine contain internal CONSTRUCTOR/DESTRUCTOR functions that delete all objects/sounds/musics/data created inside AmiDARK Engine if you forgot to delete them when your app exit.

And more to this, even in Python and other languages, etc ... it's up to you to manage medias inside the game.
The 3D objects for example :
DELoadObject( File$, Index );
DEPositionObject( Index, X, Y, Z );
DERotateObject( Index, X, Y, Z );
...
DEDeleteObject( Index );
It's similar to other development languages that handle medias ...

And if your tool load ALL MEDIAS at starting ... then you CAN'T do BIG projects ( memory limitations )

Quote:
Using AmiDark you would create an struct representing the player, the struct would contain a pointer to one or more objects loaded by AmiDark, the struct would contain a health integer and other stuff.

You're talking about a FAKE problem.
Even in BASIC, PYTHON And other language you HAVE TO DO THIS !!!!
And you ARE NOT obliged to use structures !!!
Beginner in C MODE :
float PlayerXPOS, PlayerYPOS, PlayerZPOS;
int PlayerNRJ = 0;
Where are the structures here ?

Quote:
Before you know it, you want to manage multiple enemies, then you create an array pointing to structures containing information about the enemy.

Yes, you're right ... but isn't the same under Python and other BASIC language ?
The truth is that if you DON'T LEARN THIS ... you will NEVER BE ABLE TO DEVELOP A GAME !!! so IT'S A NEED !
(or you will only develop limited scripted system where you learn ... near to nothing)

Quote:
Using AmiDark all of this has to be done in C, which is really really dangerous for an inexperienced programmer.

Wow !!! I HAVE CREATED A DANGEROUS APPLICATIONS !!! Beware !!!
Sorry but, you're really s*****.
AmiDARK Engine (like DarkGDK ) is the EASIEST WAY to learn coding !!!
Can you tell me WHAT EXACTLY IS DANGEROUS ... Samples plz...

Quote:
Just have a look at some of your ealier post to this forum and read how much you were struggling in the begining of your project.

Heh ! you're MIX things that are not mixeable !!!!
What I've done was difficult as I wasn't a C coder BUT !!! and There is a BUT And it's exactly where you are really ****** ... Everything I've done to make AmiDARK Engine become what it's becoming is to AVOID BEGINNER TO DO THIS !!
AmiDARK Engine user will never have to do all things I've done and all the difficulties I've encountered and beaten!!! I've done them to avoid beginners and AmiDARK Engine's to encounter them ...

Quote:
I dont want to send people to other platforms, but if you want to start to learn programming and game creation then C has a very steep learing curve, which can be a motivation killer.

It's not because it was the case for you that it will be the case for everyone ...

Quote:
I am an engine programmer and have so far released 3 games for xbox360 and I know game programmers who hates C, because of long compilations times, which simply kills fast interations. They only worked in our own scripting language. Which in the editor was interpreted and compiled really fast. In game mode the scripting language was ofcourse compiled native to the platform to get maximum performance.

Wow ! It's what I said upper ... you're a GOD CODER !!! But this state of "god coder" does not prevent you from saying stupidities ...
I have already developer at least 1 amiga game ( ASM + AMOS ), 3 PC Games, Game Maker (such as XQuadEditor, ), Languages plugins ( eXtends, PurePLUGIN, 2DPluginKIT ) and various small projects ... I've also worked for HIP INTERACTIVE EUROPE (game distributor company) before the company died ...
Ew ... Excuse me ... if you though that having that kind of speeches closed my mouth ... you're totally wrong :p

Quote:
My point is, if have not programmed before, dont start by learning C, learn something else, get an understanding of software development and then learn C and other languages.

And mine is that GDK like DarkGDK and AmiDARK Engine make C learning more easier and accessible even for a beginner ... Coding under AmiDARK Engine is a bit like coding under a BASIC language ... But with the power of C !!!!

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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Just popping in
Joined:
2006/11/27 21:56
From Copenhagen
Posts: 104
@freddix

Quote:

freddix wrote:
You're talking about a FAKE problem.
Even in BASIC, PYTHON And other language you HAVE TO DO THIS !!!!
And you ARE NOT obliged to use structures !!!
Beginner in C MODE :
float PlayerXPOS, PlayerYPOS, PlayerZPOS;
int PlayerNRJ = 0;
Where are the structures here ?



True that you have to manage stuff in the other languages aswell, my point is that in python memory is managed for you. Indexing an array out-of-bounds will throw an exception and tell excatly where the problem is, you fix it and compile quickly. C will not, your program will just behave strangely and maybe crash, you will spend hours figuring out why it crashes and waste alot of time recompiling your code.

Time that could have been spent better on developing your game.

Quote:



Quote:
Before you know it, you want to manage multiple enemies, then you create an array pointing to structures containing information about the enemy.

Yes, you're right ... but isn't the same under Python and other BASIC language ?
The truth is that if you DON'T LEARN THIS ... you will NEVER BE ABLE TO DEVELOP A GAME !!! so IT'S A NEED !


Also true, but my point above is still valid, yes you have to learn this, but why not learn it in a language which helps you get a better understand of the problem, instead of C which will punish you badly for doing something wrong.

Quote:


Quote:
Using AmiDark all of this has to be done in C, which is really really dangerous for an inexperienced programmer.

Wow !!! I HAVE CREATED A DANGEROUS APPLICATIONS !!! Beware !!!
Sorry but, you're really stupid.


There is no need to shout or be offensive.
I never said AmiDark is dangerous, my point is that C is dangerous.

In my earlier post I even I said AmiDark is fine for game development. IF you know C.

Quote:


AmiDARK Engine (like DarkGDK ) is the EASIEST WAY to learn coding !!!
Can you tell me WHAT EXACTLY IS DANGEROUS ... Samples plz...



Again, I never said AmiDark is dangerous, my point was and still is that C is dangerous.

Quote:


Quote:
I dont want to send people to other platforms, but if you want to start to learn programming and game creation then C has a very steep learing curve, which can be a motivation killer.

It's not because it was the case for you that it will be the case for everyone ...


Thank you for once again offending me.

Quote:

And mine is that GDK like DarkGDK and AmiDARK Engine make C learning more easier and accessible even for a beginner ... Coding under AmiDARK Engine is a bit like coding under a BASIC language ... But with the power of C !!!!


And the many, many pitfalls of C. I am sorry but I am not convinced that C is a good entry point for learning.

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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Supreme Council
Joined:
2006/11/19 18:16
From London, England
Posts: 1337
If this thread is going to continue on this trend, it will be locked. Personal attacks are againt the TOS of this site, which is available for everyone to read and understand.

Simon

_________________
Comments made in any post are personal opinion, and are in no-way representative of any commercial entity unless specifically stated as such.
----
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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Home away from home
Joined:
2007/1/26 21:48
From New Zealand
Posts: 2310
@Shadow

If I may cautiously add add my 2 cents worth to this discussion, I think that the AmiDARK API is way easier than C. While I would never recommend C or C++ with OpenGL as a starting point for games programming to complete "noobs," I think that AmiDARK is actually easy enough that it would be within a complete newcomer's reach, especially if a decent amount of tutorials and examples are available.

The only way to find out for real, would be for someone with no programming experience to volunteer to be the guinea pig.

Hollywood is also a good system to learn the basics in, and the techniques learnt could easily be used with AmiDARK (or some other API) later on.

Hans

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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Quite a regular
Joined:
2008/11/3 12:06
From South France
Posts: 763
@Shadow :
1. AmiDARK Engine handle list dynamically so risk to have an array out-of-bounds is really limited for developer ... + if you compile with debug info you can know approx from where the problem occur ...

2. Because we learn from our erros ...

3. if C is so Dangerous, why all official learning schools start with C/C++ ? They lear you these language ... they don't learn you BASIC nor Python nor your scripting language but C ...

the truth is that your opinion is "subjective" and you tried to say that : "because you are professional XBOX360" and you know maybe 3 or 4 people that dislike C ... my opinion is for sure BAD ... that why I answered in an "offensive" way... You were the first to open the door for this.

4. "Thank you for once again offending me" ... This case is not an offense... Just a constatations ... your aversion to C is for sure something based on your experience (deduced from the way you're speaking about C... For you, using C is like being Ill) so, this statement is not an offsense but a constatations. Sorry. If you consider this as an offense I'm sorry it wasn't.

5. For sure there are pitfalls in C ... there are too in other languages ... And if "professionals" school and formations learn C/C++ it's because C/C++ is the best choice for a correct way of coding. It forces you to learn the good basis and have in your "mathematical" mind ... the correct structures ...

@Rigo : sorry if it appear offending but I wanted to justify my statements ...

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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Home away from home
Joined:
2007/9/11 12:31
From Russia
Posts: 7022
@freddix

I think you not need to explain anything :) If someone want to create (even at start) slow games - then lets they use pygame for example. We all can check AlienBreed remake which i port few weeks ago (which based on python, and somehting like pygame) - only playable on 1ghz with G4 and all those more or less ok L1/L2 cashes, while on many SAMs its already slow like hell.


@shadow

Every language have problems. And yes, C itself can be not as easy as Basic (where you can do everything what you want and almost will not have crashes). But AmiDark (and DarkBasic initially), it's the same basic, but basic done with ability to use C (if you will want), and beginer will have in end fast , hw accelerated application. And he not need to use C at all in general. He can use only AmiDark function, and all what he will need to know from C : its how to compile a binary.


With PyGame, and with Hollywood, you will not have normal 2d-3d acceleration on aos4. We all can see all those examples already. Amidark based on opengl, and use aos4 apis for timing, for all other stuff (i.e. real integration and real work).

Of course, any beginer can get Hollywood, and trying to draw something 2d on screen. But Hollywood not done for 3d. Hollywood its more like some sort of hi-level api, to easy operate with OS. But amidark its done exactly for the games, exactly for the demos and exactly for 2d,3d and music (i.e. what exactly games are need).

Anyone feel free to use what he want, but for today, on amiga, and for beginers, better to use AmiDark for games because of different reassons about which i (and freddix) say.

Today, when i see new releases done on Hollywood, i mostly skip it, just becase i know what it will be , and how it will works. But when i see new demos from amidark, i know, that there will be something fast, interesting, eye-candy, with easy sources (easer than hollywood) and for real-professional games. And i not say about python (and PyGame based) games. Withot opengl module (which we not have for aos4 for now), its all suck pretty hard.

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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Just popping in
Joined:
2009/7/20 10:24
Posts: 7
In the end, a choice of a programming language or tool really doesn't matter. Just choose the one that fits your workflow and gets the job done.

I mostly do my little programming projects with Limbo programming language for Inferno or with Hollywood for other platforms.

Basic game loop is always the same, no matter what programming language is used:

- read input
- move
- check collisions
- animate
- draw


Some simple starting projects suitable for beginner:

- Langton's Ant simulation
- simple asteroids game
- simple platform game

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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Just popping in
Joined:
2006/11/27 21:56
From Copenhagen
Posts: 104
@freddix

Quote:

1. AmiDARK Engine handle list dynamically so risk to have an array out-of-bounds is really limited for developer ... + if you compile with debug info you can know approx from where the problem occur ...


Which I think is great and I love it for that, but what about the users own arrays of game entity data?

Quote:

2. Because we learn from our erros ...


I totally agree, but the more help you can get from the compiler and runtime environment the faster you learn

Quote:

3. if C is so Dangerous, why all official learning schools start with C/C++ ? They lear you these language ... they don't learn you BASIC nor Python nor your scripting language but C ...


I don't think all official schools use C/C++ as an introduction program, I know universities in Denmark use Java or C# as an introduction to programming and once the students master those languages they move into C/C++

Quote:

4. "Thank you for once again offending me" ... This case is not an offense... Just a constatations ... your aversion to C is for sure something based on your experience (deduced from the way you're speaking about C... For you, using C is like being Ill) so, this statement is not an offsense but a constatations. Sorry. If you consider this as an offense I'm sorry it wasn't.


I am sorry but that is a misinterpretation. I love C/C++, I work with it every day, it is my preferred language, but if someone would ask about learning programming from scratch I would recommend a modern language which helps you learn faster.

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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Just popping in
Joined:
2006/11/27 21:56
From Copenhagen
Posts: 104
@kas1e

I dont disaggree with you that when speed is a concern, you should use C/C++ and AmiDark or what ever.

I am still trying to say that if you want to learn about game programming. Do as Jalih also said above: Start doing something simple. Start by learning how to create a Tic-Tac-Toe game or something like and if you dont know any programming at all start learning in a language which will help you as much as possible, like python or Hollywood.

Then when you master the basics, by all means move into C and 3D and get all benefits.

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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Home away from home
Joined:
2007/9/11 12:31
From Russia
Posts: 7022
@Shadow
Imho, with amidark you can do basic stuff easer in compare with hollywood and pygame. Freddix already show an example, which imho looks easer than all that python or hollywood languages. Every line logical for just human mind. Without anything "too much language specific".

We talk here not about plain c/opengl/sdl as i say before (which of course, not for completely noobs), but about amidark. Which is are basic for games, so choice it as beginer step are still (imho of course) very good idea.

Just check all pygame and hollywood prods on os4depot :) Anything what we really can use/play in ?:)

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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Just popping in
Joined:
2006/11/27 21:56
From Copenhagen
Posts: 104
@kas1e

Hmm it just hit me, that someone (or I) should create python bindings for AmiDark, then we would all be satisfied :)

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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Just popping in
Joined:
2009/2/7 22:43
Posts: 13
@Shadow

Or maybe porting SWIG (http://www.swig.org/) and create a simple SWIG interface file for AmiDARK (the best would be if it is maintained by the AmiDARK author - as he adds functionality).
Then wrappers to any available scripting languages can be generated.
Looks like SWIG is pure C++ ...

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Re: Game Coding for beginners?
Just popping in
Joined:
2010/9/9 9:37
From Newcastle Upon Tyne
Posts: 100
@Shadow

yes i am a complete beginner ive had no experience what so ever but would really like to get into it and give something back to the amiga community. so really need to start from scratch

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