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Re: A-EON OS?
Home away from home
Joined:
2007/9/11 12:31
From Russia
Posts: 7044
@geennaam
+1 to what you say mostly, as Herman is not the one who can do anything good for os4 today. Almost everything interesting which come today for os4 or from 3d party devs, or from aeon.

But then, the only real and good replacement of OS4 stuff from aeon was in 2D/3D front: warp3dnova, ogles2, Radeon drivers, etc.

And instead of focusing on problems and improving things further, they start to act strange and replace those simple commands. And I do not see any action showing that they start to work on new graphics.library of that sort. For example, instead of for real needs to adding full DMA to graphics drivers, we have DvPlayer updated, like, there is no Emotion, and like all other DvPlayer "old" issue disappears somehow and there were needs in...

And I not sure that the experience AEon have with software development is enough to make a proper OS. The kernel developing is fragile, going too slow, ppls inside of AEON even sometimes didn't know what and on what one work. Steve and co-added to x5000 firmware something for support that damn multicore, which shouldn't be added pointed by a more experienced developer who was in charge for x5000 firmware (there was a big thread on morphzone, where Trevor, Mattew, Frank and co shows that they all can't communicate adequate, not all the time answers mails, don't know what happens, etc. I.e. no professional to coordinate all the stuff).

So I have big fat DOUBT that there can be done something new and proffesional. There just a mess from all sides.

We only can enjoy what we have. And be it Hermans, or Mattew with Trevor rule the OS4, it in all ways didn't see good enough.



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Re: A-EON OS?
Not too shy to talk
Joined:
2008/3/15 2:00
From Alberta, Canada
Posts: 379
Deleted ...


Edited by redfox on 2021/7/10 22:04:56
Edited by redfox on 2021/7/10 22:06:03
Edited by redfox on 2021/7/10 22:16:46
Edited by redfox on 2021/7/10 22:22:42
Edited by redfox on 2021/7/10 23:24:40
Edited by redfox on 2021/7/10 23:26:39
Edited by redfox on 2021/7/12 14:59:22
Edited by redfox on 2021/7/12 15:00:06
Edited by redfox on 2021/7/13 4:11:01
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Re: A-EON OS?
Not too shy to talk
Joined:
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From Alberta, Canada
Posts: 379
Deleted ...


Edited by redfox on 2021/7/10 22:19:02
Edited by redfox on 2021/7/10 22:26:40
Edited by redfox on 2021/7/11 1:11:30
Edited by redfox on 2021/7/11 5:19:26
Edited by redfox on 2021/7/12 14:56:02
Edited by redfox on 2021/7/13 4:12:00
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Re: A-EON OS?
Just popping in
Joined:
2007/1/10 21:56
From Stockholm Sweden
Posts: 181
@Thread
It's just a bigger version of Enhancer Software which still needs Amiga OS4.1 to run.

And it will not interfere with the original OS libraries, separate HD partition.

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Re: A-EON OS?
Just popping in
Joined:
2006/12/6 12:05
From Beverland
Posts: 184
@khayoz

And if you think of it, it's actually obvious.

You cannot boot the AmigaOS4.1 CD or install AmigaOS4.1 on any hardware that is not supported by the AmigaOS4.1 CD at the moment.

Having a bootable enhancer USB stick that allows AmigaOS4.1 to be installed with new hardware (New mainboard or just a new SATA controller) is just convenient. Being able to distribute such a solution means that you should not violate the rights of others. So copying over OS4 components on your bootable enhancer stick and distribute it to end customers with your new hardware is a no go.
Hence, the reimplementation of commands.
The alternative is to let customers cook their own bootable medium from enhancer and the AmigaOS4.1 CD on either windows/Linux or a current AmigaOS4 machine before you can install it on the target hardware.

That's not very user friendly if you ask me.




Edited by geennaam on 2021/7/20 10:11:33
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Re: A-EON OS?
Quite a regular
Joined:
2013/10/17 16:21
From Hungary
Posts: 674
@geennaam
How does putting OS4 files (aka "user supplied Hyperion files we don't have") into a location called "Legacy:" fit into this picture?

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Re: A-EON OS?
Just popping in
Joined:
2006/12/6 12:05
From Beverland
Posts: 184
@BSzili

Because it has a nicer ring to it then putting them in "Old Junk:"? :-p

Let's face it. The last majorish release was 4.1 FE. And that dates back 7 (!) years ago.

People complain about overwriting the old/legacy commands, classes and libraries with new ones. At least there's a clear seperation.

And let's be honest, every component can need an update, so the size of "legacy:" will shrink over time. Rather sooner than later if you ask me.

One might call it a new OS. I call it progress.

But it all starts with something bootable on new hardware that's unsupported by os4.1fe upd2.

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Re: A-EON OS?
Quite a regular
Joined:
2013/10/17 16:21
From Hungary
Posts: 674
@geennaam
I rest my case.

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Re: A-EON OS?
Site Builder
Joined:
2006/12/2 23:57
From Athens/Dublin
Posts: 937
@geennaam
First of all, I totally agree that a separated distribution is the way to go in such situation, because keeps the confusion at the minimum. If I, as a user, go and install AmiKit/ClassicWB etc, and something doesn't work as it should, the common mind would say that I shouldn't go and complain to Hyperion/Amiga Inc., but I should seek for support from the distribution creator.

With Enhancer Package 2 what happened was the opposite, and that brought a lot of confusion and complains. So, the separated A-Eon distribution, IMO, is good thing.

Quote:
Let's face it. The last majorish release was 4.1 FE. And that dates back 7 (!) years ago.

It seems that you ate AmigaKit's story that Hyperion is long dead, and the OS 4 development ceased, but as I said before, I haven't read the news that this happened. Please, if I missed it, share a url.

The last huge update from Hyperion developers released in December 2020. Please, don't eliminate the major work those developers are doing. They do a tremendous job and they deserve our respect, as every developer in Amiga community deserve.

Quote:
People complain about overwriting the old/legacy commands, classes and libraries with new ones.

I don't see on what commands you refer to. There are commands that already got updates from Hyperion developers the last couple of months, using the AmiUpdate, and there were others that were updated with Update 2 back in December. So, I am not sure on which "old/legacy" commands you refer to.

Also, most of the commands that Enhancer included didn't have bug fixes or new features. They were just re-implementations. I don't know though what the A-Eon distribution will bring. I just hope they are well documented.

At the end, I don't see why Hyperion should constantly update commands and applications if they work fine, with no bugs, and no new features needed. That doesn't make them obsolete, even if they are old.

Quote:
One might call it a new OS. I call it progress.

I really wish you are right and the new distribution will bring joy and happiness to the community, and more hardware and software sales for A-Eon, and more users to the platform. Hope we all be around to see it and celebrate, all together.

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Re: A-EON OS?
Just popping in
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2006/12/6 12:05
From Beverland
Posts: 184
@BSzili

Not sure which case you are refering to. Because today we are far off from something that could earn the label of a new OS.
And if there's still some life left in Hyperion than we might never reach that point.

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Re: A-EON OS?
Supreme Council
Joined:
2006/11/16 19:25
From Sweden
Posts: 3226
@Petrol

More like "MorphOS II". If not in name then at least in spirit.

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Re: A-EON OS?
Just popping in
Joined:
2006/12/6 12:05
From Beverland
Posts: 184
@walkero

Quote:
It seems that you ate AmigaKit's story that Hyperion is long dead, and the OS 4 development ceased, but as I said before, I haven't read the news that this happened.


It seems that you are wrong. It's my own observation. But it depends on your pov on "alive", I guess. By your definition, ITEC is alive and kicking as well. Or can you point me to an official statement that says otherwise?

Quote:
The last huge update from Hyperion developers released in December 2020. Please, don't eliminate the major work those developers are doing. They do a tremendous job and they deserve our respect, as every developer in Amiga community deserve.


Then they did a bad job at selling it. Because I see talk about bug fixes and a couple of small tools in the release notes. A major release is something that adds new features imho. And the first line is about the kernel too. The very heart of the system. And that's supplied by a third party. So in fact, OS4.1 is AeonOS already (Sorry Orgin, you have to close this site now. Mission failed).

But this isn't about a handfull of volunteers who are doing work for free in the name of Hyperion. It's about Hyperion itself. 1 person, no employees, not investing any money in OS4. Let's call them dormant. Or not officially out of business yet.

Quote:
I don't see on what commands you refer to. There are commands that already got updates from Hyperion developers the last couple of months, using the AmiUpdate, and there were others that were updated with Update 2 back in December. So, I am not sure on which "old/legacy" commands you refer to.


Yes, my internet connection and harddrive have been working overtime with all those Hyperion activity.

It's called "suggesting progress". An old trick taken right from the textbook. Crumbs to keep the crowd happy.

Quote:
so, most of the commands that Enhancer included didn't have bug fixes or new features. They were just re-implementations. I don't know though what the A-Eon distribution will bring.

It's about not bringing A-eon to court when they distribute those commands on USB sticks or any other medium than the official OS4.1FE cd. Something to do with distrubution and rights. Or lack of rights.......
Or did you manage to install AmigaOS4.1 with the unaltered Hyperion AmigaOS4.1FE cd on your A1222?

Quote:
At the end, I don't see why Hyperion should constantly update commands and applications if they work fine, with no bugs, and no new features needed. That doesn't make them obsolete, even if they are old.


You're missing the point of those commands.

Quote:
I really wish you are right and the new distribution will bring joy and happiness to the community


Not sure how to answer to this one. First of all, since all the observed whining and bitterness, it can't be worse than today.

But I don't see any community at all.
Today, "OS4 community"is just the umbrella name for a collection of small factions.
Those who follow Hyperion no matter what. Any changes to the OS must come from them otherwise its a new OS. (Morphos-II according to the site owner. *facepalm*)
Those who don't want to have anything to do with Hyperion.
Those who don't want to have anything to do with A-eon.
Those who are loyal to Hyperion but still like to cherrypick from A-eon.
Those who accept improvents no matter where it comes from.
Those who pronounce PPC dead/expensive/slow and want AmigaOS4 on ARM, x86, Risc-V, you name it.
And all different flavors in between.

The only thing that binds them is a common dissatisfaction with the current situation and disagreement over how to proceed.

To me, Hyperion tripped a long time ago and is crawling ever since. Bug fixes here, small new tools there. But no major improvements. Aeon is trying to do the community a favor by taken over where Hyperion tripped. Had to take a few steps back to avoid the only thing that Hyperion is actually good at (lawsuits), but once that is sorted out they can push the trottle as far as resources allow them to do. But it is clear to me that this is far more than this community deserves. They are basically robbing themselves by investing that amount of money in such an ungrateful community.

But it's also clear to me that I share this view with a very small minority.

You might have noticed that I speak with "they" and "them" when I talk about the OS4 community.

That's because I don't feel at home here. Probably been away for too long. Developed a fresh view that's not appreciated by the majority(See the childish remarks of the site owner himself on this topic).

But I can only agree with kas1e. What's the purpose of talking to walls. Or like the site owners likes to say: "You cannot sell me this, I'm not your customer".
Ironically, those walls are talking about attracting new users. While it's the very attitude that scares and keeps them away.


Edited by geennaam on 2021/7/21 16:25:54
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Re: A-EON OS?
Not too shy to talk
Joined:
2010/6/17 15:04
From Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)
Posts: 294
@geennaam

Quote:
That's because I don't feel at home here. Probably been away for too long. Developed a fresh view that's not appreciated by the majority(See the childish remarks of the site owner himself on this topic).

But I can only agree with kas1e. What's the purpose of talking to walls. Or like the site owners likes to say: "You cannot sell me this, I'm not your customer".
Ironically, those walls are talking about attracting new users. While it's the very attitude that scares and keeps them away.


Don't sweat it. People love to argue, especially around here. Amigans tend to be rather, um, passionate about their views. In the end A-EON, AmigaKit, Hyperion, and anyone else who wants to invest their time and money into products will do so regardless of the forums and the banter.

The only real way to change things is by actually developing product or participating in the market by choosing to purchase (or not) what others produce. Your skills give you an option not everyone has. Us normal users appreciate the work you do, and that of any Amiga developer. I hope you stick around -- and most of all, continue to find enjoyment in our little hobby.

-- eliyahu

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Re: A-EON OS?
Site Builder
Joined:
2006/12/2 23:57
From Athens/Dublin
Posts: 937
@geennaam
Quote:
Or did you manage to install AmigaOS4.1 with the unaltered Hyperion AmigaOS4.1FE cd on your A1222?

Yeap, I did with the Radeon HD card I had in my system installed, based on the limited driver. If I had a Radeon RX I would have a problem, unfortunately. Who's fault is that is a whole other discussion. I would just say here that someone didn't value highly enough user experience.

Quote:
Then they did a bad job at selling it. Because I see talk about bug fixes and a couple of small tools in the release notes. A major release is something that adds new features imho. And the first line is about the kernel too. The very heart of the system. And that's supplied by a third party. So in fact, OS4.1 is AeonOS already

I don't know if you had time to have a look at the included amigaguide changelog, but if you did you would see that there were new features in there as well.

About the kernel, you know that A-Eon doesn't own the kernel, right? So A-Eon has equal, if not less, rights on kernel like Hyperion does.

Quote:

Today, "OS4 community"is just the umbrella name for a collection of small factions.
Those who follow Hyperion no matter what. Any changes to the OS must come from them otherwise its a new OS. (Morphos-II according to the site owner. *facepalm*)
Those who don't want to have anything to do with Hyperion.
Those who don't want to have anything to do with A-eon.
Those who are loyal to Hyperion but still like to cherrypick from A-eon.
Those who accept improvents no matter where it comes from.


Would you agree with me if I tell you that Hyperion's and A-Eon's bad decisions lead this community to be broken into these pieces, as you described them? Would you agree that if the people behind both of these companies left aside their egos, or whatever separates them, and work together, we wouldn't experience the situation that we have now? In my opinion, this is the result of the decisions of all the big players. In my perspective all of them failed equally. And the result is the community division. And based on my perspective, those who are part of the problem cannot be part of the solution. The only solution I see is to see these people work together, without trying to dig the grave of each other and without pulling the carpet under their feet. At least, that's how I understand it. I might be wrong.

Quote:
Not sure how to answer to this one. First of all, since all the observed whining and bitterness, it can't be worse than today.

Just as a true wishful thinking of someone that would like to see this divided community united again.

Quote:
That's because I don't feel at home here. Probably been away for too long. Developed a fresh view that's not appreciated by the majority(See the childish remarks of the site owner himself on this topic).

As I wrote in other posts, you should feel like home because here you have the right and the opportunity to say your opinion and discuss with others, agree and disagree. And that's how it should be, even if someone expresses himself with a different way. At least you are free to do it.

From all the discussions we did in here, I don't see people completely disagree on that topic, but I see different perspective on the situation, which I find completely logical to happen. We can't agree 100% on everything. And that is not negativity or whining, just because others have different perspective than mine or yours.

If you want to see A-Eon and AmigaKit as the Messiah for AmigaOS 4, I don't have any problem with that, but as I described above, in my opinion, they are part of the problem, and they can't be the solution if they, along with Hyperion, don't change they way they collaborate. Until then the only Messiahs for AmigaOS 4 for me are the tech lead of the ExecSG team and the tireless developers of Hyperion, A-Eon, ExecSG teams :D :D :D

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Re: A-EON OS?
Site Builder
Joined:
2006/12/2 23:57
From Athens/Dublin
Posts: 937
@eliyahu
Quote:
Don't sweat it. People love to argue, especially around here. Amigans tend to be rather, um, passionate about their views.

You are right. But I don't believe this is something that has to do only with amigans. In other communities things are even worse. Linux community is even more aggressive. I think this happens on every community.

At least, I believe that here in amigans.net, we deal all things in a pretty good way. If not, and if anyone is offended in here, or saw something bad, please contact me or Orgin and we will do the best we can to solve the issue.

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Re: A-EON OS?
Not too shy to talk
Joined:
2008/3/15 2:00
From Alberta, Canada
Posts: 379
@geennaam

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I applaud the work that A-EON team and others have done to enhance our OS4 systems.

I own a very old MicroA1 system running the following:

AmigaOS 4.1 FE Update 2 + selected parts of Enhancer Software v1.5

And other 3rd party software products.


And, yes, I purchased the Enhancer Software Special Edition Version 1.5 from AmigaKit sometime after Hyperion released AmigaOS 4.1 FE Update 1 ... during those years when Hyperion seemed to be asleep.


---
redfox


Edited by redfox on 2021/7/21 21:09:53
Edited by redfox on 2021/7/21 21:39:33
Edited by redfox on 2021/7/21 22:19:45
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Re: A-EON OS?
Site Builder
Joined:
2006/12/2 23:57
From Athens/Dublin
Posts: 937
@geennaam
And something I forgot to answer.

Quote:
They are basically robbing themselves by investing that amount of money in such an ungrateful community.

Those products that A-Eon created we payed for them, we didn't steal them and we didn't share them with others. We payed with our money, with our work and with our time. And most of the times, even earlier than they were commercially ready. So, is this community ungrateful as you describe it? I totally disagree with that.

And even if we are ungrateful, that doesn't mean that we should like whatever someone does, and that we should follow them for whatever they release. Or if you like, at the end, we are free to decide what we will buy and use and what we won't, as we are free to agree and disagree with their practices. That doesn't make as more whiners or negative than others.

I hope you agree with that.

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Re: A-EON OS?
Home away from home
Joined:
2006/12/4 23:15
Posts: 2295
@walkero

Quote:

Until then the only Messiahs for AmigaOS 4 for me are the tech lead of the ExecSG team and the tireless developers of Hyperion, A-Eon, ExecSG teams :D :D :D


The problem with messiahs is that they tend to get nailed to crosses.... better to all just be people with enthusiam for amiga and variants, with faults and strengths.


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Re: A-EON OS?
Quite a regular
Joined:
2007/7/23 21:35
Posts: 722
@broadblues

Well one persons Messiah is another persons naughty boy.

Cheers

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Re: A-EON OS?
Not too shy to talk
Joined:
2008/3/15 2:00
From Alberta, Canada
Posts: 379
@geennaam

IMHO, my MicroA1 is the minimum hardware platform for OS4.
IBM PPC 750 GX CPU, 256 MB RAM, onboard graphics chip with 32 MB graphics RAM, hard drive and DVD combo drive.

Nothing fancy, just works ok for my current needs.

Shortly after I purchased Enhancer Software, I installed approximately 90% of the software on the Enhancer CD.

AmigaOS 4.1 FE Update 2 was released in December 2020.

I did a simple update, but found that some Enhancer stuff had been overwritten by Update 2, so I did a clean install (quick format, installed FE, FE Update 1 and FE Update 2). Of course, all of my Enhancer Software was erased in this process.

After I installed AmigaOS 4.1 FE Update 2 (hotfix), I decided to install only a few applications from the Enhancer Software package (plus all the required classes, gadgets, Updater and servers).

So, in the end, I have cherry-picked bits and pieces from the Enhancer Software version 1.5 package. My other 3rd party stuff was on another partition or my backup.


Of course, if I had a SAM 460, X1000 or X5000, it would be a different story.


---
redfox






Edited by redfox on 2021/7/22 16:59:37
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