@Billsey

No source, I was seeing references to Bill having been talking to Carl re the recent court case documents.

It was co-incidence that I was also looking intensely at REBOL's site at the time, trying to work out how cross-platform it could become without having a real OS that was also recompiled.

REBOL could be looking at a very cut down LINUX (I have been looking in that area as well, but a very cut down LINUX still seems a megabyte eater.

So while REBOL could be looking at a separate solution the fit with AMIGAOS seems very close to the 2007 project of REBOL 3.0, and REBOL 3.0 seems to be taking on a mix of technologies that would suit OS5.

That is it I am afraid. No inside knowledge but a good fit. Then reading this thread again, the fit seems re-enforced by the thoughts of others.

Plus there was that mysterious phrase by Bill, that AI would support crossplatform by some mysterious means that was not INTENT or TAO related (I have been a great fan of the TAO VP approach, so this had me confused for a long time - how the hell could they do it).

The last bit comes from my experience working with a company using scripts to produce applications - combined with shared generalised compiled code, the size of individual applications can be made very small (this is counter intuitive - but believe me shrinkage is a big factor when so much compiled code is reproduced needlessly in every application - generalize this often used code, tends to make it smaller and more robust).

REBOLs plugin's seem to be following the same path.

That is small generalised compiled code (hence much more easily portable).

Which brings me back to OS5. Either it is done entirely through VP code, or it becomes a hybrid - the smallest underlying OS that can be ported, a small core scripting engine that can be easily ported, a collection of small generalised plugin's that can be easily ported - and apps then become mostly scripts that run exactly the same everywhere they are run.

There is no other workable solution, there is no way that traditionally compiled programs (ie stem to stern compiles) can be made easily portable - the overhead's, even with a good SDK for "transportable" C and C++ will cause even greater app bloat.

Getting something like OS5 actually moving means breaking the isolated app approach. An OS5 would require apps that are inherently as light as possible, and this means maximising shared generalised compiled code fragments (ie REBOL plugins).

I suspect that the VP TAO system may have made portablity a trivial thing, but at the expense of application bloat.

Bloating, aside from portability, is a fundamental problem with with the direction of present computer industry (not helped in the least by C++).

There are many merits in the REBOL system, one of which is the levels of abstraction possible. A good OS like AOS4, stripped absolutely bare, presents a great level of HW abstraction. REBOL supplies a great potential level of Application abstraction.

Do that right and actual port problems, while not disappearing, are dramatically reduced.

Also it makes sense of Amiga India's specialisation. And perhaps why Amiga Inc is getting so active in getting hold of the AOS4 code at this time and seems to have developed, at least, a neutral or even a good relationship with those that actually coded for AOS4. REBOLS IOS concept also seems ideal for OS5 (plus it is up and running!).

When AI was looking at TAO, AOS4 would have been seen as a sideline. Change the viewpoint and AOS4 becomes a great asset.

Basically there is just guessing involved, but when things fit so well, and the players have been talking to one another, it just looks too good to be ignored. The fact is that all the things that attracted me back to the Amiga scene could be in the making.

PS it appears AMIGA Inc has been in contact with Carl (fingers crossed - this could be exciting).

@goody
when I first read this, I had not been on the REBOL site for some time. Just in the last few days I have been back and have read more carefully and I think you are on the right path with this, and it is very exciting.

Very important to look up the Wildman Project to quote:

"is a "secret project" that examines the question: what is the minimal environment for running REBOL? Can REBOL operate natively on specific hardware, and if it did, what components would be necessary to be successful? This project will begin early spring. Complete development will depend on our results and possibilities for potential funding."

AmigaINc apparent break with TAO had me very worried as I have had a long interest in VP technology. That Bill announced a way of getting cross platform abilities without TAO intent, made me think they were going for static compiles.

On the other hand, a stripped down AmigaOS compiled for different HW platforms, add in REBOL, a few statically compiled plugins and we really do have something looking like OS5 and a lot more beside.

It would not be AMIGA as we know it, it would be better.

AMIGADOS as a REBOL script, might be possible (REBOL calls written in the compile). The rest of AMIGADOS stripped right back to the bare essentials - and REBOL creating an application environment - this has many exciting aspects including the networking of IOS.

PLUS, if this is pulled off, the effect would be revolutionary., in terms of application size, execution and constancy across platforms. The trend to bloat would be hit hard with truly tiny efficient code that packs plenty of punch.

@Sister_Rita

Sorry I missed the point of some of the things you are asking about.

I was thinking in terms of LAN/wifi streaming. There are ways of doing what you want, but they are bulky at best and quality might become an issue.

Basically you would need to have a cable out to a RF home TV transmitter (I have seen none yet that could deal well with HDTV, but that might only be a matter of waiting. If your TV is old, cheap transmitters can be bought. I currently use two switch boxes together to redirect three cable pictures to the TV - it is primitive but it works (as I have Foxtel, a DVD player, HD receiver and PS3 all going into the one monitor).

Ideally, and it is what I am thinking of doing over time, is to have a dedicated server, and use the PS3 as terminals where you need them (hence the price has to become modest).

If AmigaOS got onboard and Sony wanted close integration, given what already happens with PSP, it should be possible to stream games from the PS3 to a computer as a screen

@Sister_Rita

Yep.

The PS3 uses wifi to stream movies and games to the PSP.

In terms of monitors vs TVs the convergence with HDTV means no practical difference.

In terms of business, the machine can be booted in the otherOS mode and the GameOS need never be seen.

It is very versatile.

As a fixed architecture, when the prices go down over time, it makes an excellent and stable business machine (business is not all that demanding on HW for the most part).

It is no replacement for desktop computers, but the rub is that often a desktop computer is over kill for what is required. The fixed architecture makes maintaining a computer network much easier.

There is a real opportunity, to side step a lot of legacy-ware in the business community, over time, simplify computer deployment and do so for a good many years.

Personally, when the time is ripe, and the costs diminish, I would like to use it as a standard student school computer (instead of a big box, it could be virtually mounted on a sturdy LCD stand).

When the price falls to less than 75% of its present cost, it will be an easy choice in a lot of areas, not the least in the home.

As a teacher, if AmigaOS was available, with a few more apps from the Linux world, I would have no problem recommending it to parents as an ideal student computer, not the least because it can also play games.

@MikeB

For what it is worth, AOS4 on the PS3 is to me vital. Missing this opportunity would be criminal. With AOS4 quick booting small footprint, and sympathy from Sony itself, it would be an ideal point of expansion for both systems.

Now we are running X server, we can even outgun Linux on such a system (Yellow Dog is complete overkill).

Amiga HW could also fill in the gap for a domestic server, a much needed device. plus as a standalone for the community.

The PS3 makes an ideal entertainment hub for domestic video and music streaming, so forget the idea of the Games console and TV, rather console, monitor, speakers becoming hubs spread throughout the house and used for anything digital (the price is only high at the moment).

@Mikey_C

I am not so much in disagreement, but there is Amiga Inc, Hyperion, the third party contractors and the development team who have made efforts for free (as I understand things). There is Acube/SAM and ACK, Amiga India to consider.

Of all these the most important are the contractors and the development team, their expertise is essential and a bed rock for future development.

My view is that the developers themselves are the neglected element in this.

Secure the developers, underwrite a company for them, consolidate this by the code in its entirety. If they would come across deposit the IP with Amiga on a secure royalty basis that would cut across the issues.

Going to court, may mean concessions by Amiga Inc, but as I understand IP law internationally the code would be surrendered to it in the end, including that of the actual coders. The coders would be the losers in this, and they neither deserve that, nor can their expertise be wasted (bad feeling afterwards could monumental).

With VISTA falling apart and everything else, AmigaOS has a window of opportunity to establish itself again in the wider market. My worry is this will slip by.

Create a company tied into a conglomerate, that is an OS specialist group centered on OS4 in initially, complements Amiga India whose expertise seems to be porting.

As for the rest, they could be fitted in. But the expertise of the coder base, the consolidation of the code IP is not something that can or should be damaged. In a sense, they are the chestnuts that need to be taken out of the fire.

@ssolie

<blockquote>[speculation]
Personally, I'm speculating this court case is another negotiation tactic to force the final resolution of their contract once and for all. Neither side really wants it to go before a judge so I would expect and hope this will be resolved before that happens. While the court case drags on I would expect neither side can ship any OS4 based products so it makes sense it is resolved sooner rather than later. I suppose Hyperion could launch a counter-suit or fight it until the judge rules but why bother for a product with a very uncertain future anyway.
[/speculation]</blockquote>

On the surface, this seems to be a good bet. It is of course a last ditch effort, and if things don't settle, then I fear there is enough to proceed with.

Hyperion has a good case to maintain that the termination of the license has to be overturned and it remains the distributor of OS4. But the code would have to be given over and the problem of the contractors will have to be resolved by it. Perhaps the IP of the contractors could be secured with a percentage of sales?

The Acube problem is a hell of a lot sticker. Amiga could stick by its guns there, which would be not nice, however, a compromise over timing of release might solve that (please).

I repeat, hopefully AmigaInc is listening, the Amiga Community sales of HW are too small to effect much at all, having a number of different boards, with different specs all running OS4 plus Linux will help the bigger market grow for such HW (in this OS4 really has many points in its favour).

Reading through the documents, AmigaInc's legal case is very strong. In a US court even stronger. Morally, it is a lot less, bu this IS business and that makes me worry.

The moo-bunny chorus has clearly been getting a steady stream of leaked information. I estimated elsewhere 80% of it was FUD, it is clearly now almost the reverse, but not in terms of what is actually going on.

The main sticking point is the handing over of code, and Hyperion has been using this to get a better deal. The fact is that OS4 is much better than it should otherwise be, regardless of going beyond their original brief. That is a value that needs some recognition. There should be compromise and a step by step resolution should not be impossible (ie license renewal co-joined with code surrender).

@all

This is a bad sign there is no doubt, but we don't know anything much at all.

The dispute has got out of hand, to what degree is the question.

Unfortunately, I think Hyperion may have the weakest case, legally speaking, especially in a US court.

If it really becomes hard ball, OS4 will be the worse for it, Hyperion's team have done such a great job it would be disastrous for this to be harmed.

It depends on how much Hyperion and Acube may have winged it, as to how much harm has been done, I suspect because it is a "trademark infringement, trademark dilution, unfair competition" and not a IP one it may be about agreements between Acube and Hyperion. In regard to AmigaInc and ACK.

That at least would be a lesser disaster.

Worse the real prize are not these boards, but AOS4 running on PS3 and that needs Hyperion on side as I understand these things.

More details would be needed, but it does not look good, especially now when we were expecting some good news. The only other option is that AmigaInc has gotten itself in a position to come out from behind, and hence wants nothing in the way for its plans.

My point remains that the Amiga community is so small it hardly matters in board production terms, and the OS could well do with several different boards being made available. Personally I like the SAM specification for a whole lot of reasons but mostly its passive cooling, which could put it places where nothing else could.

ACK might be a nice spec for a fast desktop. Compromise would be best - market the SAM as an Amigian domestic server, and embedded system board.

@Billsey

Your comments have appeared, and indeed it is a very nice review of an excellent product.

@Mikey_C

I believe the trolls are wrong on many counts. The problem is they have kicked up so much dust that it is difficult to see anything clearly, or judge anything well.

There are certainly many intriguing aspects to the recent announcements and news, but there is surprisingly little reason to see these through hyper-critical lens.

I find the Hyperion-Acube announcement on one hand the AmigaInc-ACK fundamentally mysterious. Mysteries, especially such open ones that lack any indication of an underlying friction, are more exciting than depressing.

Vista is doing badly, Linux and Mac appear ready for a full frontal assault, PS3 is out with an open invitation for 3rd Party OS porting, and we have OS4 being boxed and three potential boards in waiting.

A shift away from MS has long been predicted, perhaps IBM and Sony seeing their chance, and there appears money about (at least to finance our three boards - no big money, but some money). The Indian connection with Amiga Inc. None need be connected in any way, but all point to a period of rapid change.

Then there is the publicity, not much but after such a drought as welcome as the first signs of rain spiting out on the dry cracked mud plains.

My belief is that it has been raining up in the hills, for some time, small developments accumulating over the years on a few fronts, slowly trickling in behind those few companies that have stayed the course, building up pressure, until now when the spill-ways are being tested for the release.

I doubt if any of us without inside knowledge are close to the mark, but I am damn sure the Trolls have not only missed the target but are shooting bows with their arrows, all in the wrong direction.

Good news or foul, there is news on its way, and that is good, in a month or two we will know where we are at, and that is good as well.

I just hope it is enough, whatever it finally turns out to be to rid us of this damn trolling-pathology we have suffered for too long. The time is right, who knows maybe this is just want AmigaOS needed all along.

@agafaster

Quote:

A dollop of good sense is worth a mountain of speculation.

What is, I have little doubt, a renegotiation of contractual obligations (ably, and usually, handled by lawyers), has been turned into an imaginative battle royale for the ownership of AOS4 (on what legal grounds is never mentioned).

It could be worse, but a balance of probability very much places this as a storm in a teacup and a fairly normal development in business relations. It thus may be more, but probably is not.

Acube looks lined-up for a license, and now the ACK announcement. And some have speculated on OS5, which remains a possibility, though I would not even guess on likelihood.

Now would Hyperion take on the expense for a boxed OS4 that leaves out its recent partnership with Acube who is destined to be its world-wide distributor when it is clear that their main HW product is intended to run OS4?

That does not make sense to me. It seems much more likely that the Boxed edition is intended for SAM at least.

What of the ACK board, which also seems destined for AOS4, or maybe, as some have speculated, for OS5.

ACK may be more advanced than we might suspect and the current boxed OS4 edition might be also for it. A good thing for choice, and as I keep saying the present community market is too small for even one board, it makes very little difference if there is another, or even a third - even a PS3 port hardly matters in this.

The community is just too small to justify any of these developments singularly, multiplicity hardly effects anything much at all. Either the boards have other markets, or they fail. It is that simple (the relatively high price is first run price for the Amiga community, but also a stock for industry assessments and demonstrations).

Now one last thing. OS5.

OS5 will not be based on Tao, this has been stated categorically. But this is not to say that Tao VP code will not be involved (I dearly hope so for a variety of reasons).

Amiga Inc has also said that AmigaAnywhere will be ported to OS4. Others have said they are not interested in AA on Linux (and I concur - Linux would make me very unhappy).

On the other hand, OS5, running as an stripped down OS4 port to a specific piece of HW, hosting the AA environment, supplies a simple way of porting AA to OS4 proper (SAM model perhaps) - in fact no porting would be involved.

ACK running perhaps a cut down slimed OS4 in combination with AA and called OS5, that would to my mind all sensible sit together. It gives OS5 development room as a useful OS (when apps are developed), as a development machine for portable VP apps etc.,.

This would also fit into AI's long term plans.

While OS4 would stay PPC based (which makes sense especially with the PS3 market). OS5 need not be so confined, it could be (it is small enough) be ported to small devices as a foundation layer for the VP applications.

That would make a lot of sense. The interface between the VP compiled code and the HW specific drivers (the Indian specialty). Opens things up for AI as well as Tao, and Hyperion, ACK and SAM.

It would because of this be OS5 the OS4 component, once cut down, adapted to specific HW and ported to different CPU families would no longer be OS4 in any meaningful sense, and it would not be Linux overkill either.

If the above makes sense, we are certainly in for an interesting time.

@Atheist

I wish I knew.

The easiest long term fashion would be to compile applications for something like Tao's VP, and port the AOS to each new CPU and configuration.

From a VP position AOS would be a neat, small host environment.

It would give much more freedom to CPU developers in the long run, for the industry is moving much faster than we are.

If I invest in software, I should expect it to run in the future, not go into limbo every time there is a significant upgrade in HW.

I really think this is the tidy solution.

AOS is uniquely placed, because of its size, and design, to make minimal ports for CPUs, providing of course that parts of it and apps could be put into some VP environment and changed at translation.

The Linux solution of Porting and recompiling everything has been progressively refined, but the bulkiness and uneveness of this is purely old-world.

@Rigo

Quote:

Spot-on.

If there is a problem we'll find out in the fullness of time. If there isn't we'll have three boards.

All the boards will need customers outside the community - it widens the PPC base, which is good, for us and all the HW companies, and good in the end for OS4.

I think people underestimate, especially cut-down versions, of OS4 in a variety of uses in a variety of boxes. Hollywood is a very good front end, easily updated and improved user interface for embedded HW/OS.

Hence also porting to PS3 will enormously widen that appeal and potential.

We either grow, or slip into the grave. The more boards the better, I just hope all the players are thinking the same thing.

@Alkaron

I don't know if it is going to be a battle, that would be silly. The HW companies have sort things out in the market, there is no reason why AOS4 should not be on ACK, SAM and Trioka for that matter.

None of these companies swill make it unless they sell far wider than the Amiga Community market as it stands.

But it does look like we have gone from famine to feast.

@Plaz

Quote:

In effect this is what they have done.

I think a lot of FUD has been produced by the Peg side of things, which both AI and Hyperion would, I believe, be mad to consider (re the CEO and his claims).

If you really stand back, aside from board proposals, the only one with a suitable production board (SAM, discounting over boards in various stages of development) may well be licensed and only waiting for the actual release of the OS. But we don't know really.

In short, the whole saga of AI not negotiating licenses really means a particular license, to a particular company, it has been generalised out of all proportions.

Likewise the disputes between AI and Hyperion, cannot be what is often attributed to them. They are about IP, payments etc.,. but claims that they amount to Hyperion trying to get the OS (which is largely meaningless, as they can and will continue to develop it and sell it - is not likely to be in dispute)

Hyperion retains rights to distribute the OS to licensed HW, paying a royalty to AI (my guess). What is OS4 is a flexible definition that allows Hyperion to further develop it.

Ownership would only effect three things, royalty payments, naming rights, and licensing.

I doubt these are seriously at issue, there is plenty of ground for other disputation, that involve finance, IP rights that can be resolved without the ownership of the OS being made an issue, as it so often is.

@Billsey

I am sorry, for a while we were quite excited by what we found when running Linux on the PS3 "shared libraries not yet supported".

However, looking at the SPE section the thread based nature of the code is pretty clear. Plus we made a fundamental compiling error and may have been using some form of virtual code, instead of Cell compiled binary.

I do find the reference to Unix-like shared objects, a bit strange, I keep feeling if Rogue wanted to refer to something that helps the Linux porting, he would have said "Linux-like".

Hopefully someone here, might be able to unscramble what this actually might mean. Rogue made three references to it, in two places - it seems to have some importance.

One of the problems the community has is that so much is negatively charged, attention to the few bits of information we do get is either ridiculous or largely ignored.

Rogue under NDA's and whatever, always succeeds in communicating important things without saying much. Usually it is the passing details which have the most information. Like his reference to working on the distribution framed within a timetable, that begins it on Monday.

He is not saying anything about the release schedule, but conclusions of timing is not difficult either.

What could "Unix-like shared objects" be, is this anything to do with SPE code distribution? Is it to do with Linux, or is it something else again?

@Helge
It just does not make any sense whatsoever to provide a boxed OS for a handful of AmigaOne owners, most of whom have 99% of the new OS4 version already on their machines.

It only makes sense to go to this expense in order to supply it with HW to new customers.

It makes no sense for any of the players to announce anything within the community, until it is done.

Considering that Rogue states he is working on the final ISO contents now, it looks like SAM and OS4 is now only few weeks away at most.

Hence it makes sense to redo the old Amiga.com site, which after all they have for an extensive period done nothing with since before the original AmigaOne days.

If Hyperion is producing a boxed version for a few thousand AmigaOne owners, for no better reason than they said they would, I suggest that we should give up the whole thing because it is being run by complete lunatics.

Hyperion has got practically nothing back from OS4. To take on this just to look good is the most financially stupid thing I have ever heard. Nothing, indicates this level of stupidity amongst any of the players.

The noticeable absence from the site of any reference to SAM or the Acube, or for that matter the minimal references to Hyperion itself, seems purposeful.

Eyetec is still financially involved and acknowledged, which seems strange to be equated with the same status in the only reference to Hyperion.

My guess is that the empty space, so obvious in the web space, the space where Hyperion and Acube should be mentioned, is to be filled-in when the board, the new boxed OS, is ready to go and not before.

After all AOS4 is mentioned, yet the distributor (Hyperion, or Hyperion/Acube) seems unconnected at this point. The present Web site is being readied, it is not yet final. The only logic reason for this happening now is that:

OS4 IS scheduled for commercial release in 2007 - fact in a matter of weeks, not months.

@Rogue

Quote:

I noticed the IBM SDK for the PPC family also is using a shared library feature. In my programming ignorance it seemed to be an important addition. Especially as IBM was claiming that its SDK made it considerably easier to code for all the range of PPC based CPUs.

Bare with me.

The new version of OS4 has "UNIX-liked Shared Object" support, as stated by Rogue.

Today a friend of mine used the the new IBM PPC/CELL SDK. He wanted me to see how these things ran under Yellow Dog Linux on my PS3.

They didn't, but in an interesting way.

The error message was "Shared Libraries are not YET supported by ...."

My copy of Yellow Dog is pre-release. Their problem, what they were working on at that time, was making Yellow Dog Cell, rather than just PPC compiled.

Since then IBM released its Beta SDK.

I might have the whole thing wrong. But IBM was saying that support for Cell would be "much easier" now.

The problem of course with a thread based system like Cell, is programming beyond the PPC core to the SPEs.

The problem then is do we end up with PPC compiled programs and then also Cell compiled.

What if by using a Shared Library loader, the shared objects could be processed the normal way on a PPC (no code change), and the very same code would make use of the SPEs when run on a Cell. After all it is the loading mechanism that needs to be aware, for in one sense a shared library can be thought of as a thread.

This is speculative, and technically ignorant speculation to boot.

And no it is not a revival of PS3 thing by other means. What seems to be afoot is that IBM is creating a family compile environment which can get the most from the PPC/Cell that it finds.

Rogue's reference to "UNIX-liked Shared Object" was repeated 3 times (in two different contexts). The big question for me is why include it at all, unless it has implications for OS4 and how programs are run on it.

Rather than being a "nice extra" perhaps it is an essential for the future of OS4 on the PPC family of CPUs (including naturally enough the Cell and its successors).

Feel free to correct me, but the impression of running a recently compiled Cell app on an old version of Linux quickly adapted for the PS3 Cell might imply more than just one thing not yet done - hence instead of Rogue saying Linux-like, he said Unix-like.