@COBRA and TETSOFT


well i haven't read yet the rest of the comments, i will do so after this post.
i just wanted to reply to both of you concerning the memory protection and the backward compatibility with existing software.

you have to ask yourselves:
does the existing software is worth that much ?
i mean because of that desire to keep compatibility with old software the OS is designed in a certain way that is no toward the future..

to keep that compatibility you're making OS to abide to the old API and by doing so, the OS itself will feel just like it .. like this old api.

i would like to add comment like " like and old cow that can be crashed anytime, with low uptime, less stability etc etc ..

i will refrain to continue making such comparison because that would make many ppl feel bad or insulted, but i do think it's the truth.

now about thoses old software...
what do we have ? dozen of old uneeded crap, and a few great softwares. about that few great software you have to ask yourselves: do the author still suport it ?

if yes, then he could eventualy rewrite some part to make it working under a new OS4 that would support a stronger API with things like memory protection and unicode for exemple.

if not, if the author simply left and will no be supporting his software for amigaos anymore, then why bother ?
i mean you ppl have to start thinking about the future..
new api, new standards .. this isn't 1998 anymore..

i would have understood a bit more such a choice back then, but not theses days .. it's 2007 fellas.. soon 2008..

for what you want to acheive, there's other approach, like sandboxes, emulation, or virtualization..

that compatibility drag you down like a stone.. think about it..

now i read the rest of the comments ..

@COBRA

maybe i should be more patient then ..
what you and chip said is true..
i agree about having os4 on new hardware is high priority ..
and ressources are limited.. true

i just hope AmigaOS evolves up to todays standards ..
in fact what i really hope for,
is just an os with the Amiga look and feel and the stability of linux and modern OS features ..
and open source too , so it cannot fails and be doomed to stagnate for years
like we all witnessed since commodore went down.

i guess i'm asking too much at the same time ..

sorry ;)

@TetiSoft

Quote:


lol
ok.. so you can crash every system.. maybe .. okay why not ..
then what about getting an OS that could be crashed as much as linux, or macosX ?

and btw, hyperion doesn't seems to agree with your "view" of amigaos,
cause they said implementing memory protection is gonna happen at somepoint and they already started doing it. not as much as i would like but .. still.

so basicaly you're saying that amigaos to stay amigaos,
it shouldn't evolve and stay on the same bases it was 20 years ago ?
wow .. that's an interesting point of view..

how can we call that ? ultra conservative ? anti-progress ?
maybe Metathesiophobia (fear of changes) ?
dunno .. but for me evolution is important, the needs of 20 years ago and the needs now in 2007 aren't the same, you gotta keep up with your time, or you'll get called old fart or things like this eventually..



edit: typo

@TetiSoft

yea i bet you won't repeat it.. cause the answers weren't that good in fact..
you answer was basicaly:
users should add support themselves (creating charsets and all).
authors of old patch for os3.x should adapt their patchs to os4
and, unicode for os4 won't happen anytime soon,
cause it's not easy to do it.
and that kind of things...

rogue called you and expert about encoding and unicode ..
well you'd better be cause adding modern features to that old mule doesn't seems easy indeed.

but at that pace, os4 won't get anything (modern feature wise) for quite some time ..

what about the idea of sand boxing os3.x stuffs?
or whatever else instead of native reimplementation of it ?

amigaos wont go nowhere sticking to the old stuff like that ..


edit: typo

@AmiDog

indeed .. you're right there'a problem with the command i used:

(checking for network security holes.. then sawing that big uptime
i got excited to forward it to you all amigans ..)

# nmap -sT -O localhost

Starting nmap 3.70 ( http://www.insecure.org/nmap/ ) at 2007-07-26 17:35 JST
Interesting ports on localhost.localdomain (127.0.0.1):
(The 1643 ports scanned but not shown below are in state: closed)
PORT STATE SERVICE
21/tcp open ftp
22/tcp open ssh
25/tcp open smtp
80/tcp open http
32770/tcp open sometimes-rpc3
Device type: general purpose
Running: Linux 2.4.X|2.5.X|2.6.X
OS details: Linux 2.5.25 - 2.6.3 or Gentoo 1.2 Linux 2.4.19 rc1-rc7)
Uptime 1.876 days (since Tue Jul 24 20:34:07 2007)
Nmap run completed -- 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 2.231 seconds
[root@kxtest ~]


i ran the same command on the same machine few hours ago and it reported around 1.700 days and now only few hours later it reports around 1800 days ..


well instead of nmap, let's use the good old "uptime" command:

[root@kxtest ~]# uptime
17:37:56 up 150 days, 23:44, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
[root@kxtest ~]#

not quite 1700 nor 1800 days but,
your os4 machine's still up to the task ?

.. btw when i did my thesis, my machine ran some 200 or something days .. watching movies, writing my thesis with openoffice, playing games with wine, browsing the net ... not a problem or a reboot for more than 200 days with everything kept opened like this night and day... that 100page thesis, that browser with tons of opened tabs ....etc ..that was 6 years ago.. using redhat8 iirc

@Chip and evilrich

i undertand you both have valid arguments.
i don't like to waste electricity either, i like ecology a lot and i'm against waste and global warming ....(add a lot here about our current civilisation model...)

but i'm saying amigaos can be crashed anytime by a bad app.
some ppl will argue that they select carefully application they run so random crash doesn't happen much, and someothers will argue that with correct configuration they can get a strong and stable system.

i'm all in favor of the new memory system hyperion is building.
i hope it will get even thougher.

amigaos need to become stable as a rock.
not only server need to achieve long uptime.

and what's worst than,
say you go off to bed, letting your os4 box running on some downloads, crunching, or any other tasks .. rendering or whatever, and you wake up in the morning to see it crashed during the night .. all the work is lost, now that's even more waste of electricity..

say you go off to work same way, with your os4 box left running on some task, and when you get back home, it died miserably during the day, maybe even altering harddrive partitions or lost half downloaded file, or half rendered scene .. or whatever..

this os need to get stablier..
and eventualy need utf8
and what prevent us to get such vital feature for a modern OS ?
wanting to achieve compatibility with os3.x natively..

this could be done in a lots of other way, such as sandbox approach, emulation, virtualization etc .. implementing this natively mean the new OS is at the mercy of the OLD api weak points it try to achieve compatibility with.

i'm not baashing, i'm tryed to get ppl to open their eyes.

plus i'm really doing this in the wrong place, cause i'm a fan of open source, i discovered it when i've quit amiga 10years ago. i shoud say all this on AROS forums instead ;)

closed source model are even more dead..
so a old api and a old development model..

look at that machine's uptime..
when the same for amigaos4+ ?

-----------------
Running: Linux 2.4.X|2.5.X|2.6.X
OS details: Linux 2.4.0 - 2.5.20, Gentoo 1.2 linux (Kernel 2.4.19-gentoo-rc5), Linux 2.4.20, Linux 2.4.20 - 2.4.22 w/grsecurity.org patch, Linux 2.5.25 - 2.6.3 or Gentoo 1.2 Linux 2.4.19 rc1-rc7)
Uptime 1.770 days (since Tue Jul 24 20:34:08 2007)

or this one:

# uptime
15:12:45 up 150 days, 21:19, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.00


--------------------


right now the uptime of an os4 machine doesn't exceed 3weeks in very exceptional cases.. for standard uses and users, it's rather few hours, or if lucky few days (2~3days)


when will amigaos get unicode support?
when will developper will concentrate on useful features instead of try to keep compatibility with a dead and outdated old API (os3.x) ?

amigaos is weak to regain it's glory, it need to be stronger, stablier.
and eventualy get unicode so anyone anywhere in the would could use it.

no need for more glowicons now ..

@TetiSoft

like i said .. 3rd world of computing ..

but hey, all paths needs to starts somewhere right ?
well, what can i say?.. i guess all efforts are much appreciated..
but that still doesn't makes os4 more usable yet.
i'll still have to wait probably a lot, until it reach a state when i can use it on a daily basis..

i guess utf8 support and memory protection and such aren't to be considered luxurious or elite features nowdays ..

but , otoh, you os4 dev ppl are lucky, not much of the ppl left in the community really understand thoses concept of memory protection, so they don't care much about it but .. there's a whole world outside the community you know ? ;)

well at least you got me watching ;)
keep going, maybe within the next 5years .. or maybe not,
you tell me ;)

@spotUP

amiga the 3rd world of computing.

I think the funny part is tetisoft asking why would you need utf8 at all ;)
Same as memory protection right? who needs it anyway ?!

hum yea i forgot.. amiga is retro nostalgia thingy.. and having all thoses features would make it a reasonably modern environment..
god forbid ;)

but wait, you got lots of shiny icons don't you all? who cares about the rest when one get plenty of nice glowy icons ? ;)

maybe you could paint utf8 glyphs on png icons and use them to display some sentence.. i know it could take a while to lineup properly all the icons to be able to read the sentence, you who also need to use another OS to take screenshots of all the glyphs before copy and paste them into icons .... but it would be so retro fun..

now that's definately a good project idea for glowicon-revolution 14

only amiga makes it possible :)

@Valiant

maybe it won't help much, but for me amaya worked without doing anything special, just install and it worked.
so i don't get the requester you seems to have.


@cygnusEd

i have the japanese ttf font for gtk2 programs.
i have installed it already. now i would like to test it with a gtk2 program..
a gtk2 text editor like vim would be a good test application maybe .. or another gtk2 text editor..

i'll wait you release it to test.. in the mean time i will try to find type 1 japanese font.

thanks for your explanation :)

@gurumeditation

yes me too i'm very interested in hearing some fresh news about magellan..

please some screenshots and progress report :)

@cygnusEd

Quote:

yes please ! if i could convert the font i could use cygnix to display japanese. that would help me a lot..
please explain me :)

i look forward to test vim gtk2.. it should work with ttf font and display japanese too..

so either way that's great.

@olfa

Quote:

Notepad cannot display unicode multibyte.
When i change font i cannot choose "unicode utf-16be".
Notepad know only 8bit plain text.

The only program that can display unicode utf-16be is typemanager.

Please look at this screenshot:

http://keisangi.free.fr/amiga/notepad.jpg

Do you see "charset" on the font requester?
charset type is this:

------------
ISO-8859-1
ISO-8859-2
ISO-8859-3
ISO-8859-4
ISO-8859-5
ISO-8859-6
ISO-8859-7
ISO-8859-8
ISO-8859-9
ISO-8859-10
ISO-8859-13
ISO-8859-14
ISO-8859-15
ISO-8859-16
IBM850
IBM852
IBM437
KOI8-R
Amiga-1251
windows-1250
windows-1251
windows-1252
windows-1253
windows-1254
windows-1255
windows-1256
windows-1257
windows-1258
TIS-620
X-ATO-E2
X-ATO-PL
X-ATO-srpski
US-ASCII
-----------


No unicode utf-16be i'm affraid..
Even if i choose "sazanami" font, it doesn't display japanese unicode (multibyte unicode)

i think we need a new charset. i'm not sure what to do.
i think Tetisoft understand all needed step.

@cygnusEd

so i tested vim and amaya, they work great..
i'm starting to love cygnix :)
i can even use amaya to read slashdot (CSS support) :)

but i still have the same problem it seems,
gtk1 program don't see / can't seems to use my two ttf fonts.. is there's something we can do to enable gtk1 apps to use the font we add into cygnix ?

so fat the only program that showed them is gtk2 thene editor.

again, thank you for all the hard work!

@cygnusEd

thanks for your answers.

i tryed to put my ttf fonts into:

X11R6.3-Pre3/Home/root/.fonts/
run "fc-cache" from amiga shell and OS4 sdk's "sh/abcshell"

then i tryed another drawer:
X11R6.3-Pre3/CygnixPPC/share/fonts/truetype/
i tryed again to run fc-cache ..

fc-cache runs but after it finished, i still cannot see my fonts in gtkedit ?

i have this:

5.Apps:X11R6.3-Pre3/Home/root/.fonts> list
fonts.cache-1 9178 ----rw-d Today 13:21:52
.dummy 1 ----rwed 15-Feb-05 17:21:52
sazanami-gothic.ttf 7690324 ----rw-d 29-Jun-04 22:37:20
sazanami-mincho.ttf 10554196 ----rw-d 29-Jun-04 22:39:48
4 files - 17M bytes - 8943 blocks used
5.Apps:X11R6.3-Pre3/Home/root/.fonts>

but none of the font appear in gtkedit font selecter.
and i cannot view my files in utf8 neither in other encoding. (japanese text)
maybe i did something wrong? why the sazanami fonts doesn't appear in gtkedit font selecter ?

i look forward to test your new sdk when it will be out :)




edit: i see sazanami font were correctly added finaly.
if i choose "gtk2 theme selector" and from there select another font, i see sazanami font listed.
so maybe it's just gtkedit which cannot use gtk2 fonts?

would be nice to have gtkedit or another text editor which could use gtk2 fonts.. gtkedit is gtk1 ?

@olfa

i tested new jkff 003. it works !

please see:

http://keisangi.free.fr/amiga/jkff003test7.jpg (editpad OS3.9) result ok!


http://keisangi.free.fr/amiga/jkff003test8.jpg (notepad OS4) result ok !

well done ! ^O^/

@cygnusEd

the new version of cygnix seems very nice ..
simple to start.. runs nice and all..

i have a question if i want to add more fonts, how should i do ?
i have two TTF fonts here, i would like to add them in Xwindow so i could use them.
how do i recreate the font cache?
where do i have to put the ttf files?

i will try to see if i can compiles some programs..
i haven't looked at the docs yet,
is there's some examples about the compile options, flags and how to compile with xxxx lib support and that kind of thing?
basicaly how do we compile stuffs for cygnix?

thanks for all the hard work!

@olfa

did you noticed it works with JKED ?

http://keisangi.free.fr/amiga/jkff002test4.jpg
http://keisangi.free.fr/amiga/jkff002test5.jpg
with AA (antialiasing) :)


About Typemanager "Text type" items:

- "Unicode in UTF-8"
- "Unicode in UTF-16BE"
- "Unicode in UTF-16LE"
- "Unicode in UTF-32BE"
- "Unicode in UTF-16LE"
- "Plain 8bit text"
- "Unicode in UTF-7"


about the test:

1. Run JKFFInput
2. Run EditPad(OS3.9)
3. type "u"
4. (EditPad display garbege)
5. Save "test.utf"
6. Quit EditPad
7. Quit JKFFInput
8. Run TypeManager
9. Open "test.utf"
10. Change text type to "Unicode in UTF-8"

result here:
http://keisangi.free.fr/amiga/jkff002test6.jpg


------
Typemanager and AmiPDF are the only applications that can show multibyte unicode.
Other applications cannot show multibyte unicode I think.
-------

about your question on JKFF website:

"
In OS3.9, EditPad(OS3.9) can input kanji with UTF-8.

But NotePad(OS4.0) can't input.

UTF-8 have not only 0x00-07f, but also 0x80-0xff.
Kanji with UTF-8 have wide range in byte. It use

0x80-0x8f <== Many application are remove this byte. EditPad(OS3.9) keep it. NotePad(OS4.0) remove it.
0x90-0x9f <== 0x9b is CSI(Control Sequence Intoducer) in OS3.9. Is OS4.0 too?
0xa0-0xaf
0xb0-0xbf
0xe0-0xef

i really don't know.
i suggest you ask Tetisoft or Joerg, they are real developers. If you tell me how to check i will do it.
otherwise i just don't know how to verify this (CSI 0x90-0x9f....) if you want me to verify this please tell me how to do it.
thanks

@Olfa


**
it works with JKED!
**
please see:
http://keisangi.free.fr/amiga/jkff002test4.jpg
http://keisangi.free.fr/amiga/jkff002test5.jpg
with AntiAliasing (AA)!


i tested also:
68k editpad from os3.9 result: no good
Ed (68k os3.9) and Ed (OS4 PPC?) result: no good
CED (the old demo from aminet 1987) result: no good




@joerg

yes you're right, thank you :)
i've just tryed it out:
http://keisangi.free.fr/amiga/jkff002test3.jpg
it seems "text type" change itself automaticaly.
so when i tryed with notepad, it didn't changed automaticaly.. means it couldn't recognize the text type maybe? with the files i created from my PC and the ones i created with JKED, Typemanager's sample text function "text type" change automaticaly to "unicode in utf-8".

@olfa

I tested JKFF version 002 here are the results:

http://keisangi.free.fr/amiga/jkff002test.jpg
http://keisangi.free.fr/amiga/jkff002test2.jpg
http://keisangi.free.fr/amiga/jkff002test3.jpg
http://keisangi.free.fr/amiga/test.utf

------------
It seems Notepad doesn't save the file correctly.
(the name changed: editpad --> notepad)

In jkff002test2.jpg i tested with a file i created from PC (in unicode) result is good.

With same settings, files created with Notepad: result is not ok.

The program we use to display japanese is: "Typemanager".
I installed linux font "sazanami" from debian linux.

thank you for your efforts.