@Curty

Answered...

@

wrong button :)

@Curty

I might have buyer for complete system. He seeks 603+.

Intrested in ? He lives Turku, Finland.

@kicko

Did you decided it yourself personally?

@joerg

Heh, I don't say you won, but you make good points

Still, I hope that these unix crap naming just dissappear...

@joerg

Thanks about answering.

it is correct, that many apps (firefox, OWB, blender like examples, list is allmost endless) are too difficult to port native.

I talk primary about user enviroment, not SDK, and from user point of view, not programmer point of view.

And yes, asl.library is good example, still it is .library.

Still... If there is intention to make AmigaOS more POSIX compatible, I see it uncomfortable and it leads anyway to mess, if number of drawers count up, we have amiga naming style and POSIX style for drawers/files same time, alien files most probably scatter around "original" amiga system (they are allready...).

We saw fist symptoms with *.kmod files. Ok, I should open my mouth before... But they vere in kikstart, and I didn't said anything, wich is trange because my mouth tend to be open.

Ok, if any others, you or os core developers don't see it like problem, but I will. It is definetly mess and destroys AmigaOS understandable, clean and friendly environment from _point_of_view_of_user_.

So it might be fine to change naming policy, even if it leads recompile old ports. it is not too late, it needs more work, yes ... :)

Sorry about highjacking your thread ... :)

We can continue and all look each others and repeat, how good fellows we are, even if it is not true. it just leads mistakes and therefore I stand correct with my critism, even if I'm not coder.

With all rspect all devs wich still hang around and make things happen... And you about OWB.

@LiveForIt

@LiveForIt

Maybe it is needed in future ?

I really don't believe, that we get big and complicate apps native very soon. Not enought devs. No new hw, no new devs. Sooner or later there have to be solution, but meanwhile...

Many linux apps are good allso.

If it is possible to give different location compare to posix ( \lib vs SYS:SObjs ) it should be possible to change naming...

@Hans & all others

Yes, they are here for POSIX.

Is it impossible to convert them something like name.shared.object via SDK??

I just hate everything nonsense cryptic.

I use again same example. libjpeg.so is probably most stupid way to name anything. Everything starts lib , middle of the name is important part, it ends to .so. Clever?

I know, that I repeat myself.

Here is my first attemp to make conversation about it. Post #104. I stand behind it.

http://www.amigans.net/modules/newbb/ ... t_id=22391#forumpost22391

How one can hide link in here under shorter text?

There is more idea, why *.so naming scheme is bad. Please read it.


It seems to be more or less obvious, that we get more and more ports from elsewhere same time AmigaOS is going closer to POSIX and front-end high class native Amiga apps are more rare. Anyway I personally don't see any reason to spoil amiga's friedly structure with that kind of style, POSIX or not. And I just try to keep enought noise to keep OS sanity alive :)

And I don't believe, that it is not very difficult convert lib*.so
naming scheme to something more sane via SDK(?). If more and more posix-compability is imported to OS, it leads more and more messy user-enviroment.

If I just want to punish myself, I don't need amiga for it. I can allways start linux or boot wintel. No problem.

If I just want to enjoy my computing, I fire up my amiga, it is clear and simple to understand, easy and understandable to use and dig in.

@Rogue, if you read this, take my pain off and promise something better )

Sorry about OT. Sometimes conversation just leads from one thing to other .... nature of conversation.

Thanks everyone about their patience.

@orgin

How much modifications is needed to SDK to turn it "amigish" really ?

If it is just interim or temporary solution, then never mind.

But I personally don't see any reason to copy all bads from unix/posix world.

@Rogue

Eh, I start my usual nonsense whining again

Why so files are named un-amigish way, like libjpg.so.

I feel it very uncomfortable...

Otherwise I'm happy with OS4 like a litle monkey ...

@orgin

Ok, sorry.

I quote myself from other thread, something like that:


I'm with you if you mean that amiga should stay like amiga.

This new shared object thing is surely advantage to system, but naming is not exactly what I call amiga style. Historically there is somename.device , somename.library and so on. Easy on many ways. It is human readable form, library is maybe long suffix but it says it friendly way. If you look drawer contents in alpabetic order, it is easy to find what you look for.

With shared objects you have names like libsomename.so. Not very handy nor amigish way to say it, really ? And scan drawer, all files start lib ...eye must jump over three first character and start to reconice actual name after lib. Not very easy, if you have many lib#?.so files in drawer.

I should prefer somename.shared.object or someame.shared.library, even if naming scheme is longer. Anyway it is easier to read, it says everything needed in human readible form and it is amiga style.

Uuuuh, this made me feel better, I got high blood pressure, when I saw this libxx.so thingie...

Same applies to kmod files, why need to copy naming from unix/linux ?

Many cases in POSIX system commans and sufixxes, naming behaviour in general is minimal (ls , rm etc.) because of these old nasty paper cards with holes, when every saved bit meant less fragile paper storage for program/data. But this was sixties, we don't need to respect or copy this style, really. Amiga is originated to eighties with magnetic media, not sixties with paper media


I can't underline too much datatypes. it save a lot on years, when OS hasn't any official support for new types of pictures, sounds and so on. So it is good idea to develop it further for better stream handling etc. Datatypes are overall one of the best ideas generally in computer world.

Someone mentioned cups ... fine for me as long as it respects amiga file naming style and it's parts are stored in workbench to places, where normal brains can find them

At least part of cups drivers are raster driver and they were worse quality than others, at least before. It can be different today. Should be intresting to know, how well they perform with photo quality printing. I don't know current state of cups, since I don't use linux for desktop. It stays, where it's stenght lies, servers...


Amiga file sharing Envoy is good. Don't know, how it works with OS4 though. Something similar should be nice os4 native. Envoy has users and groups allso.

I think, that windows ACL type permissions are more suitable to small business(users,groups), where you can give permissions relativelly freely in user level. Pretty handy in small companies, where one person can have three different chairs and same time tight security is needed. Little 10-15 biochemical or medial companies like example. Unix users,group,owner is more or less useless in these cases and it suits better in corporates, where ACL can lead to mess.

http://www.softhut.com/envoy.html

Samba is not bad for amiga-linux-window file sharing. Microsoft was forced to publish smb protocol (or parts of it) so it makes differene to samba eventually.

@orgin

Can it be allso a forum, where someone can poit, wich AmigaOS features or behaviour is better to stay/save ?

Or did I miss idea ?

@Jack

let's say little company, where is CEO, management, middle management, two-three different groups of workers and maybe economy group.

Then we have various type of different data for every group. One worker is in two-three different group and same to all group members.

I find it very difficult or impossible to apply all permissions with unix like users/groups/owner permissions, at least when client want to make over complicated permission model.

If you have larger company, mostly automatically it leads easier permissions (enought ppl to every post in company) and unix permissions manages thing just fine, is easier and makes impossible to mess whole permissions to hell.

Maybe it is my brains, but none of my unix-expert friend didn't manage do it either :)

ACL leads "pain in the ass" in larger scale, but that case it is easier to use groups rather than users. ACL is just more flexible, yet without worries you can mess whole permission model with it.

@whose

This is slightly of-topic ... sorry about it.

I'm with you if you mean that amiga should stay like amiga.

This new shared object thing is surely advantage to system, but naming is not exactly what I call amiga style. Historically there is somename.device , somename.library and so on. Easy on many ways. It is human readable form, library is maybe long suffix but it says it friendly way. If you look drawer contents in alpabetic order, it is easy to find what you look for.

With shared objects you have names like libsomename.so. Not very handy nor amigish way to say it, really ? And scan drawer, all files start lib ...eye must jump over three first character and start to reconice actual name after lib. Not very easy, if you have many lib#?.so files in drawer.

I should prefer somename.shared.object or someame.shared.library, even if naming scheme is longer. Anyway it is easier to read, it says everything needed in human readible form and it is amiga style.

Uuuuh, this made me feel better, I got high blood pressure, when I saw this libxx.so thingie...

Same applies to kmod files, why need to copy naming from unix/linux ?

Many cases in POSIX system commans and sufixxes, naming behaviour in general is minimal (ls , rm etc.) because of these old nasty paper cards with holes, when every saved bit meant less fragile paper storage for program/data. But this was sixties, we don't need to respect or copy this style, really. Amiga is originated to eighties with magnetic media, not sixties with paper media


I can't underline too much datatypes. it save a lot on years, when OS hasn't any official support for new types of pictures, sounds and so on. So it is good idea to develop it further for better stream handling etc. Datatypes are overall one of the best ideas generally in computer world.

Someone mentioned cups ... fine for me as long as it respects amiga file naming style and it's parts are stored in workbench to places, where normal brains can find them

At least part of cups drivers are raster driver and they were worse quality than others, at least before. It can be different today. Should be intresting to know, how well they perform with photo quality printing. I don't know current state of cups, since I don't use linux for desktop. It stays, where it's stenght lies, servers...


Amiga file sharing Envoy is good. Don't know, how it works with OS4 though. Something similar should be nice os4 native. Envoy has users and groups allso.

I think, that windows ACL type permissions are more suitable to small business(users,groups), where you can give permissions relativelly freely in user level. Pretty handy in small companies, where one person can have three different chairs and same time tight security is needed. Little 10-15 biochemical or medial companies like example. Unix users,group,owner is more or less useless in these cases and it suits better in corporates, where ACL can lead to mess.

http://www.softhut.com/envoy.html

Samba is not bad for amiga-linux-window file sharing. Microsoft was forced to publish smb protocol (or parts of it) so it makes differene to samba eventually.

This was from point of view of user.

edit1: added link and mentioned kmod
edit2: some mumbo-jumbo about permissions

@all

Do anyone know in advance company, who give developer info for programmers easily ?

I know, that Intel and adaptec has good hw-raid cards...

I

@TMTisFree

I think, he means, that a1 chipset is unable to handle two sticks correctly.

so you can test in with join couple of big files together and then copy it to ram and again to disk. To be sure make that couple of times (allways delete earlier copy from ram) and then check result to compare original to copied with md5 sum.

I'm intrested in about results allso.

@Renoir

Dunno know about compability with SCSI, but I'm content with my radeon 9250.

Radeon 7000 has very poor performance with 3d, so you should avoid it.

I personally think, that this is more than welcome.

Only thing, what worries bit. When coder base is large, transition from old system to new happens painlessly. When it is thin, things get more difficult.

Or maybe redesigning makes it more attractive for point of view of programmers from "outside" ... More modest OS, more new programmers.

maybe I think just too loudly... ?

@Renoir

you should direct output to serial :

setenv stdout serial

hope that helps some, I'm not actually sure, if this is correct anymore, but AFAIK it was before that way.

@Paul

Sometimes unplugging power cord indicates bad power supply or dying mobo.

Condensators wont work anymore properly or simply gets overloaded because of bad supply. Specially condensators, wich gives currency to processor.

A1 condensator cans are good quality, additionally mhz's are relativelly low (less stress), so power supply is suspected.