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Re: Porting more interesting stuff
Quite a regular
Quite a regular


@trezzer

Quote:

trezzer wrote:
@Rogue

The modularity and simplicity stems from the way the system is structured. Libraries and datatypes that handle what you throw at them. Text-based scripts (such as startup-sequence) that makes it easier to understand what does what.


That doesn't make the system modular. It isn't. Something is modular if the pieces are optional. In AmigaOS, you cannot simply take away Intuition, or Graphics, and still have a working system.

The library concept is hardly something that is exclusive to AmigaOS.

Quote:
Sadly we've not seen as much progress with libraries and datatypes as I would have liked to see (for instance a Gecko or WebKit library for handling web pages across applications - or system-wide handling of video in the same manner we see images handled through datatypes) and I guess there are good reasons for that somewhere, even if I don't know them (as far as I know datatypes aren't ready for streams, so I guess that's part of it).


The reason for this is mostly that the library system is very limited.

Quote:
I would apply the terms to toolkits by way of simplifying again and again till things could get no simpler without breaking. Then allow things to grow as much as necessary and no more. Obviously this is easier said than done, and it's probably not the technical answer you're looking for (others can answer those better than I - and I hope they will), but if you open up the "GUI" prefs, I'm sure you can see what I'm not too keen on as a non-programmer.


The problem with such simplification is very obvious in a lot of areas in AmigaOS. Try to measure time, in such a way that you get an asynchronous timed event in a program. You must have timer device open for that. For that to happen, you need to

- Allocate Signal
- Allocate Message port
- Allocate IORequest
- Open Device.

While each part is very simple, it is replicated in each and every program. Simplicity is a hindrance here. Where the API more complex, it would offer better support for these recurring tasks.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: new alpha
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Quite a regular


@graffias79

I'd like to point out this is not a Hyperion project. It's just Thom and me doing this.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: new alpha
Quite a regular
Quite a regular


@MichaelMerkel

No, the code is still the same, but compilation hasn't actually reached that stage yet. The Javascript engine has seen some heavy modifications, including a new memory handling that might be a bit problematic.

The 'gfx' part also has changed, and will need extra work.

All in all, we're still looking at several weeks worth of work until the version 4 is up and running.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: Porting more interesting stuff
Quite a regular
Quite a regular


@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote:
@Rogue

Thank you for the link to the gui shot of Qt on Windows.

With the subject of look/feel being mentioned I was just going to ask folks if they could provide some links to what they are discussing. Sadly, the words "port" and "linux" often cause a kneejerk reaction before people even give a fair look.
Your example will help us relate.

#6


You can also look at practically any shot of KDE 4 to get the idea of how it looks. And please note that none of these even tries to look like AmigaOS. With the right visual theme, it could look very much like it, and still retain the superior functionality.

The problem with some Amiga people is that they think everything on Amiga should be different. Unfortunately, they tend to forget that to be different, somebody actually has to undertake the work to make it different. Right now, there is no way that the Amiga community can gather enough people for such an undertaking (creating a modern UI), so going to look on other systems is the only option.

And why not? Amiga has failed to deliver a web browser that works with modern web pages. OWB is a port, but it works. People have to realize that reinventing the wheel is not going to happen.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: Porting more interesting stuff
Quite a regular
Quite a regular


@trezzer

Quote:
To me a great strength of the AmigaOS is the modularity and simplicity


Please define "modularity and simplicity" without resorting to buzzwords. Describe what in AmigaOS is modular, and what is simple.

Then, describe how you would apply these to GUI toolkits, and which GUI toolkit in AmigaOS' past you think had these qualities and why.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: Porting more interesting stuff
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Quite a regular


@Fab

Quote:
Well, if you plan to turn OS4 in a random linux distribution (with all the flaws without the advantages) by integrating all kind external components and concepts that will just alter the original amigaos experience, then it's surely the way to go...


Sorry, but that's bollocks. The same could be said about MUI. MUI works within the context of the application. That is why it stops to react to button presses when if the application doesn't regularly invokes a callback. That is not how the "original amigaos experience" worked either, however, I do not see you claim similar things about MUI.

The gust of it is that Amiga user interfaces, and that includes MUI 4, look old-fashioned and severely lack in functionality. If that is what you call the "original amigaos experience", then it's surely the way to go.. I, on the other hand, would prefer to have configurable window layouts, modern looking interface designs based on compositing, and all the goodies that user interfaces on other systems already take for granted.

Quote:
Doesn't anyone feel there's something wrong there?


Seriously, have you ever pressed a button on any other OS? Does that feel in any way different than pressing a button under AmigaOS? Let me help you, no it doesn't. Whether a toolkit is based on BOOPSI, Qt, or LEGO doesn't mean anything. The user doesn't care.

It's what we call "progress". It means that you add functionality, not retain the lack of it for the sake of nostalgia. Your line of argumentation would mean we are never allowed to leave our 640x480 Productivity screens with 16 colors. It would mean we would have had to retain HAM mode for the sake of "Amiga experience", while everyone else is using 10 bit floating point framebuffers.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: Porting more interesting stuff
Quite a regular
Quite a regular


@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote:

I don't think anyone would consider your decision to look at something else an "insult".


It was a reference to a recent posting of mine that got commented like this on Amigaworld.net.

Quote:
As far as MUI itself goes, I tend to look at it merely from the perspective of those who are more comfortable with it, knowledgable about it...and feel they could bring more to Amiga OS with its use as opposed to learning something new.


The debate about MUI vs, Reaction is as old as MUI and Reaction itself. I used to be a supporter of MUI until such time as I tried to write a program with it and saw how easily you can mess it up with weird settings in the prefs program.

One thing I seriously dislike about all the Amiga toolkits is the way to
... write
....... user
....... interface
....... code
.. like
.. this.

I hate this macro CF, it's unintuitive and prone to errors. It's born out of the fact that there is no decent interface designer tool on AmigaOS, and user interfaces have to be maintained in program source (the only exception being Feelin). While this is, to a certain extend, still true in Qt it is masked by the fact that user interface designers exist.

@trezzer

Here is an example gui shot of Qt on Windows. The Qt distribution has quite a few examples in it.

Scripting is no solution for a GUI. How would that work? A script is a linear succession of instructions. That does not differ in any way from an executable program, just that it is a few times slower and the source code is compiled every time it is run (sort of).

At the core of it, there is always the same concepts. Windows, widgets/gadgets, and events. Events are generated by user input or programs, and are handled by a programmed succession of instructions, be it a piece of code or a script.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: new alpha
Quite a regular
Quite a regular


@samo79

Well the reason is that once Timberwolf comes out, we would want the latest version of it. Updating the source code now to 3.6 and later to 4.0 is a waste of time, so we opted to go for 4.0 directly as the better alternative.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: Porting more interesting stuff
Quite a regular
Quite a regular


@number6

My unofficial view on AmigaOS GUI toolkits ?s that they all suck dead hamsters through a garden hose. Compared to modern UI toolkits from other platforms, they lack in functionality, customization features, and about everything else.

They all of their flaws, and they hardly have any strengths. Making a list of all of it would be a waste of time. Personally I consider the list of Reaction to be the shortest one, but I am quite sure MUI supporters will chime in and say otherwise. It's personal opinion anyway, so you're welcome to yours, as I am to mine.

Personally, my favorite pick for a future GUI tool kit would be Qt. It's very functional, customizable in a decent fashion (i.e. through themes, not through the exchange of every single frame, bitmap and what have you. It has good developer support, good functionality, and a GUI builder.

But I guess this is going to be "an insult to the community" again..

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: Porting more interesting stuff
Quite a regular
Quite a regular


@Fab

Quote:

Fab wrote:
@number6

Don't try to bring facts in this discussion, it's generally not well received. :)


A typical troll comment. A statement that doesn't say anything. It's just there to incite answers of the flamy kind. Well done.

For what it's worth, my recollection of the MUI debate was that it was supposed to be ported to OS 4 by Jens Langner, and no hardware was required. Of course, other people might tell a different story.

(oh why does this forum require me to wait to correct a simple spelling mistake?)

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: A500+ with Developer PPC 603/150 & Amiga OS 4.0?
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Quite a regular


@billt

True, the A3000 is supported as well.

@Sveta

Quote:
"DeveloperPPC (rare) equipped Amiga 2000 (A2000)"


It doesn't matter what Wikipedia says. There are only three machines supported:

- A1200
- A3000
- A4000

If it works on any other machine, that's a coincidence and not intentional. The A500 is certainly not among the supported devices.

As I already told you in private mail.

I was wrong by the way, MapROM needs to be *off* not on. Otherwise, the mapping mechanism isn't available to bootloader.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: Porting more interesting stuff
Quite a regular
Quite a regular


@Fab

Quote:

Fab wrote:

So do you feel good to have registered OS4 now? :)


Speaking about registering, I remember when I registered MUI with the SASG it said something about "quality control" and "regular updates" which sadly failed to materialize.

And yeah, I now wish I had never registered it.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: A500+ with Developer PPC 603/150 & Amiga OS 4.0?
Quite a regular
Quite a regular


@Sveta

I wasn't even aware such a config existed.

I am sorry, but I have to say that we do not support such a combination.

The error message you list might point to an issue with BootLoader recognizing AmigaOS 4. Usually, AmigaOS 4 will anchor itself in the system by overriding the ROM shadow on the Blizzard; make sure you have the MapROM option enabled.

Other than that, I have no idea. I don't think it will ever work, since AmigaOS 4 assumes an A1200 or A4000.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: Cherokee webserver port: anyone?
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Quite a regular


@Snuffy

Quote:

Snuffy wrote:

A Python GUI is seriously missing in our humble OS!


Unfortunately, most Python stuff uses Tcl/Tk since it is included by default. I have never liked either, but even if you take that away Tk isn't an easy port since it relies on X, and not really worth the hassle since it is rarely used in relevant programs.

With Tk out of the picture, the only thing that can be done is writing our own GUI library. I've done something like that in the Installation Utility, although it is limited. But it won't help with any ported programs.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: Porting more interesting stuff
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Quite a regular


@tfrieden

Quote:

tfrieden wrote:
@Elwood

So, is a port of Firefox not worth a mention in your list ?


Or Blender, for the matter.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: Serious AmigaOS future discussion
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Quite a regular


nevermind

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: Pictures/Video of VCF Event needed
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Quite a regular


@Chris

Argh! I wish people wouldn't photograph me from behind. Or from about any angle, to be honest.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: Timberwolf Icon ...
Quite a regular
Quite a regular


@klesterjr

Woa, I like those !

If you don't mind, we'll include them in the next update and offer an option which icon set to install.

(It's a difficult choice, both yours and mason's icons rock O.o)

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: why do people think TimberWolf will be 'sluggish' on anything other than X1000 ?
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Quite a regular


@DAX

Please note that the end result won't necessarily be 2 to 8 times faster than what is out now. It will be faster for sure, but by what margin is difficult to say right now.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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Re: Imediate GR here when attempting to run Timberwolf
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Quite a regular


@TheKorn

Check the libdl.so against the one in Update 2. This sounds like a problem with either libdl.so or elf.library.

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
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