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Format & Quick format
Just can't stay away
Joined:
2009/2/9 19:32
From Brussels Belgium
Posts: 1070
Isn,'t format supposed to detect bad sectors,and to hide them later on?

I bought a new hd for my Sam460ex partitioned it and tried to install OS4.1FE, in factt because of troubles described below i created a number of different sys partitions in which i tried to install the system

I used quick format first, and got troubles either during install (hd errors) or if installed with even basic OS programs crashing or behaving strangely

I then used format hoping to get better results, but i still get those hd errors while installing OS4




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Re: Format & Quick format
Home away from home
Joined:
2007/5/19 13:23
From England
Posts: 3460
@JosDuchIt
There are two possibilities:

1. The connection to your HD is bad. This means that data will be corrupted, and there is nothing OS4 can do about it. Try a different cable for a start.

2. Your HD has bad sectors. This means it is failing, and will completely die sooner or later. The HD will have SMART saying whether this is the case, but it's hard to explain how to check this (needs 3rd-party software on both AmigaOS & Windows, both of which tend to be overly technical).

Frankly, if you have ruled out option 1 (bad cable), then I would bin the HD.

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
I love using Amiga OS4.1
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...
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Re: Format & Quick format
Just can't stay away
Joined:
2009/2/9 19:32
From Brussels Belgium
Posts: 1070
@ChrisH

it is a new HD date februari 2017

as to the connection it worked ok till i got problems with my old hd which died.

Before i am turning it in:

- should format be followed by quick format (normally)
- could it indeed be that Amiga format does not identify bad sectors? That seems weird to me

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Re: Format & Quick format
Not too shy to talk
Joined:
2007/2/6 13:57
From Donostia (SPAIN)
Posts: 358
@JosDuchIt

Not sure if it matters, but didi you use MTB to read/install RDB and then click on 'Install/read configuration...' (and save changes)?
And not sure if format does look for bad sectors and mark them.

AFAIK you should alwayas do a format QUICK on HDDs. And check cable as ChrisH suggested.

You can use c:IDETool to see/get some info, or use SysMon (zztools):

#c:idetool -u sii3114ide.device 2
-------------------Unit 2 information------------------------
Flags : $000001C5 - present, supports DMA, ATA, supports power mgmt, supports cache flush, interrupts used,
Xfer mode : best pio 12 (PIO 4, 16 MB/s) / best dma 70 (UDMA 6, 133 MB/s) / current 70 (UDMA 6, 133 MB/s)
Total blocks : 234441648
Blocksize : 512
...


#c:idetool -d sii3114ide.device 2
-------------------ATA device information-------------------
Dev type : KINGSTON SVP200S37A120G
Remov Dev : no
Remov Med : no (probably harddisk)
Revision : 502ABBF0
Serial # : 50026B722B01DA88
LBA : yes
Tot. Secs : 234441648
Tot. Size : 120034123776 bytes, 117220 mbytes, 117 gbytes
Main features :
IORDY : yes
SMART : enabled
Security mode : not enabled
Power mgmt : supported
Packet cmds : not supported
Write cache : enabled
Look ahead : enabled
...

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Re: Format & Quick format
Just can't stay away
Joined:
2006/12/4 23:15
Posts: 1849
@JosDuchIt

Quote:

Isn,'t format supposed to detect bad sectors,and to hide them later on?


No, it simply formats the partition with the files system structures.

Only use quick format, full format just wastes time and has no benefit on a hard disk.

Modern harddrives monitor and deal with bad blocks by themsilves.


As others have said, check your cabling.


You could get smartctl from os4depot and run it to see info on the hard drive, but it's quites complex

Simplest way to call it is
smartctl -H devicename:portnumber

(eg smartctl -H sii3114ide.device:0 on my SAM440)

This should give a simple healthy message.


If the disk has errors and is new take it back to the shop.



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Blender For OS4.x : Blues : Walker Broad
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Re: Format & Quick format
Just popping in
Joined:
2007/8/31 0:10
From England
Posts: 74
@JosDuchIt

Well this sounds very similar to a problem I had with installing PATA hard-drives on my AmigaONE XE some years ago. I tried 4 hard-drives of the exact same model number (they were Western Digital drives - I could probably find the model number if necessary). I tried every possible setting to get these drives to work correctly. The drives would appear to format and partition fine but when it came to install OS4, the install would always stop with an error at a random file being copied.

Eventually, I decided to try a different type of HD. The drives were again Western Digital, but they were RAID types. They worked perfectly, first time!

So I put it down to an incompatibilty of hardware.
Maybe a similar thing has occured in your case?

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Re: Format & Quick format
Just can't stay away
Joined:
2009/2/9 19:32
From Brussels Belgium
Posts: 1070
@Lemen
That might very well be the case,
Mine is also a WD HD and the controller is aRAID controller
Is your HD identified as Raid on its ticket?
Please if possible give me its reference
Even after corrective action in the shop (initialisation, formatting, memory control) I still have the same result: memory read errrors., crashes with the newly installed OS

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Re: Format & Quick format
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Joined:
2009/2/9 19:32
From Brussels Belgium
Posts: 1070
@broadblues
Quote:
As others have said, check your cabling.


I am trying to but except pulling out & putting back cables, there is not much i can do.
I tried this:

Test 1: Pulling out the DVD cable and put it into the SATA connector on the Mobo (J15?)
i had u-boot settings (menu)
SATA 3x12 HD
SATA 3114 HD (the onboard controller?)



Now i am writing this from my SAM460ex using OWB, and it is far more stable than before. Maybe i pushed the HD cable that it makes better contact.

On the RAID SATA controller here are two ports J1 & J2 the DVD is in J1, The HD in J2.
Test 2: Can i just switch them?
Going back to Test 1 later , as the system seems more stable i am going to make a second boot partition first




Edited by JosDuchIt on 2017/8/19 18:16:09
Edited by JosDuchIt on 2017/8/19 18:16:39
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Re: Format & Quick format
Home away from home
Joined:
2007/5/19 13:23
From England
Posts: 3460
@JosDuchIt
It's not clear to me if you tried this, but the ONLY way to rule-out a cabling issue is to try a DIFFERENT cable. (Although trying it in another sock is also a good idea, incase the socket is failing. But this is less likely than a bad cable.)

_________________
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I love using Amiga OS4.1
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...
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Re: Format & Quick format
Just can't stay away
Joined:
2009/2/9 19:32
From Brussels Belgium
Posts: 1070
@ChrisH
What means getting hold of one.
In a few days maybe, I will take a short,leave
Any idea if Itest 2 , switching DVD and HD is not potentially dangerous
Should the DVD work (boot) also from the motherboard connector jj15?


Edited by JosDuchIt on 2017/8/20 6:06:01
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Re: Format & Quick format
Just popping in
Joined:
2007/8/31 0:10
From England
Posts: 74
@JosDuchIt

I'm unsure of the markings to recognise the HD's as RAID types. I did contact Western Digital prior to purchase to ask. They replied, but unfortunately, I no longer have their response.

The HD's that work are WD Caviar RE:
Model No: WD2500SB-01RFA0.
and
WD Caviar:
Model No: WD1600BB-56RDA0.

I have 2 each of the above drives - all 4 of which work flawlessly.
It's possible that the "RE" in the model name stands for "RAID Edition" but I don't know.

The HD's that gave problems were WD Caviar Blue:
Model No: WD1600AAJB-00J3A0.
All 4 of this type of HD gave the same troubles.

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Re: Format & Quick format
Home away from home
Joined:
2007/5/19 13:23
From England
Posts: 3460
@JosDuchIt
I would try swapping the HD & DVD cables. Do NOT swap the sockets the HD & DVD are connected to, as that may work differently, or even not work at all (in some cases).

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
I love using Amiga OS4.1
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...
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Re: Format & Quick format
Just popping in
Joined:
2008/10/18 10:25
From Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 46
@JosDuchIt

I've had endless problems with new HDDs on my A1XE.

Since I got my X5000, I have installed a new SSD and HDD, and transferred one of my HDDs from the A1XE, and only the latter has given any problems (and I'm not entirely sure that it's not doing what its supposed to...)

Here are a couple of things I have learned / been told that haven't been covered here so far:

1. Never do a full Format on an SSD. It will kill it.
2. Most modern drives are rated 6 GB/s but have a jumper to set 3 GB/s. I have been told to set this jumper.
3. Don't use all the drive, leave some space (a few GB?) at the end.

and has already been mentioned...

0. Check your cables. ;)

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Re: Format & Quick format
Quite a regular
Joined:
2006/11/29 8:09
From Lyon, France
Posts: 865
And just another thing : use a blocksize of 512 when configuring your harddrive (in filesystem section) with Media Toolbox.

Otherwise you'll encounter some troubles.

_________________
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AmigaONE X1000 1,8Ghz, 2GB, Sapphire Radeon HD 7700, with Amiga OS 4.1 FE
http://www.amiga-ng.org
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Re: Format & Quick format
Just can't stay away
Joined:
2009/2/9 19:32
From Brussels Belgium
Posts: 1070
@ChrisH
Quote:
I would try swapping the HD & DVD cables.

Thanks for the suggestion, will try that

Quote:
Do NOT swap the sockets the HD & DVD are connected to, as that may work differently, or even not work at all (in some cases

Yes, that is why I refrained doing it.

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Re: Format & Quick format
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Joined:
2009/2/9 19:32
From Brussels Belgium
Posts: 1070
@daveyw
Thanks for sharing your experience, will look after the jumper

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Re: Format & Quick format Edit: + U-boot messages gone
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Joined:
2009/2/9 19:32
From Brussels Belgium
Posts: 1070
@K-L
I did read the suggestion about block size 512 somewhere, so I started using that block size, later when problems occurred and as during installation,when you format the partition, 1024 is proposed by mediatoobox, I did try that block size. It was neither better or worse I think
It is strange that the install procedure does not insist on using 512 bytes.

I reasoned tat with bigger and faster hd's a larger block size would be logical. The size for the SWAP partition is mentioned in full in the procedure: it should be 4096

I am interested in the logic of using 512 for the OS partition

@chrish
i switched the dvd and the HD SATA cables. I am not sure if there is some progress.
I can boot from DVD or HD but my u-boot messages don't appear any more


Edited by JosDuchIt on 2017/8/21 14:41:30
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Re: Format & Quick format Edit: + U-boot messages gone
Just can't stay away
Joined:
2006/12/9 10:44
From Lyon, France
Posts: 1307
@JosDuchIt

If you use SFS as a filesystem you *must* use a 512 bytes blocksize.
For other filesystems other sizes may be OK.

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Philippe 'Elwood' FERRUCCI
Sam460ex 1.10 Ghz
http://elwoodb.free.fr
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Re: Format & Quick format
Just popping in
Joined:
2014/6/29 14:12
From Montserrat
Posts: 146
@JosDuchIt
I am using a 500GB Western Digital WD5000AAKX-00ERM0 Hard drive in my Sam460ex.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136769

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Re: Format & Quick format Edit: + U-boot messages gone
Home away from home
Joined:
2007/5/19 13:23
From England
Posts: 3460
@Elwood Quote:
If you use SFS as a filesystem you *must* use a 512 bytes blocksize.

That's the official line, and you are entirely on your own if you try anything else...

... however, I had no choice except to use a 1024 (or was it 2048) block size with SFS2, so that I could create a big enough partition for my large HD. I've *never* had any problem, despite heavy usage.

It's also worth mentioning that SFS *used* to support non-512 block sizes, and they only removed official support for that later. I don't know why, although there was presumably a good reason!

@JosDuchIt Quote:
I did read the suggestion about block size 512 somewhere, so I started using that block size, later when problems occurred and as during installation,when you format the partition, 1024 is proposed by mediatoobox, I did try that block size. It was neither better or worse I think

Since your drive uses Advanced Format (aka 4K Sectors), I suggest that you try using 4096 block size. It shouldn't make any difference (except for performance), but it's at least worth a try. If no improvement then go back to 512 block size.

I think FFS probably officially works any block size (including 4096), but I could be wrong. NGFS probably also supports any block size, but again I could be wrong.

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
I love using Amiga OS4.1
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...
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