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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Just can't stay away
Joined:
2006/11/24 17:54
From Sanremo
Posts: 1700
@redfox

on the list above you can delete Aweb and IBrowse.. i don't use them anymore since long time.. you can use them only on amiga sites, but out the "AmigaZone" they are useless...

The only thing sure about Timberwolf is that we see it after FF 4.0 will be available.. that's what Hans-Joerg told..

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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Just can't stay away
Joined:
2007/10/25 9:21
From Gothenburg / Sweden
Posts: 1175
@redfox

Off all that browsers only OWB is usefull for me.

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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Amigans Defender
Joined:
2006/11/17 22:40
From England
Posts: 3171
@Kicko

What's wrong with NetSurf? (except the lack of Javascript) Tell me and I might be able to fix or add it, at the very least it can be submitted as a feature request.

Maybe I'm slightly biased but I use it all the time as it is whizzy fast compared to OWB.

Of course I use OWB too, but only on sites which won't work with NetSurf.

Anyway... the current version of OWB won't cease to work just because it isn't being developed anymore. People are still using iBrowse and that hasn't had an update in years (although I am amazed they are still putting up with it given the amount of CSS based sites out there)

Chris

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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Not too shy to talk
Joined:
2006/12/1 3:20
From Michigan, USA
Posts: 368
@Chris

Quote:
What's wrong with NetSurf? (except the lack of Javascript)


Especially on 3.0 development, I agree with you.

But on eBay, for instance, when I look at a car for sale, I can't see the rest of the pictures of the item by clicking on the additional thumbnails. Nothing happens with the mouse click.

At Studebaker Driver's Club I had to look at the site on another browser, and then come back on Netsurf 3.0 dev and kind of guess at where the log in information boxes were on the top right of the page to get myself logged in.

I assume both are javascript issues.

But overall, I'd say Netsurf is really close to OWB for usability now. Thanks for your work on this!

Paul

_________________
Builder of Frankenthousand The monster A1000
The Young Frankenthousand A1-XE G4 2GB Sii Radeon 9250 Catweasel MKIII NEC USB2 OS 4.1FE Update 1
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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Home away from home
Joined:
2007/9/11 11:31
From Russia
Posts: 4193
@Chris
Lack of Javascript its big-big problem. Just because it used everythere, and being able to suck all the times with that pretty anoing. When NetSurf will handle Youtube site normally (even without plaing of html5/flash), then we can start to compare :) But as i understand, netsurf will have JavaScripts after 1-2-3 years, which are way too long.

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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Amigans Defender
Joined:
2006/11/17 22:40
From England
Posts: 3171
@Paul

Quote:
At Studebaker Driver's Club I had to look at the site on another browser, and then come back on Netsurf 3.0 dev and kind of guess at where the log in information boxes were on the top right of the page to get myself logged in.


I think that is a layout issue. Please can you submit a bug report? http://www.netsurf-browser.org/contact/

@kas1e

Yes, unfortunately Javascript is a big job and to do it properly means other aspects of the browser have to be changed first.

This is the development plan, if interested: http://wiki.netsurf-browser.org/Development_Plan

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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Not too shy to talk
Joined:
2006/12/1 3:20
From Michigan, USA
Posts: 368
@Chris

Quote:
I think that is a layout issue. Please can you submit a bug report? http://www.netsurf-browser.org/contact/


Done!

Paul

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The Young Frankenthousand A1-XE G4 2GB Sii Radeon 9250 Catweasel MKIII NEC USB2 OS 4.1FE Update 1
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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Just can't stay away
Joined:
2007/10/25 9:21
From Gothenburg / Sweden
Posts: 1175
@Chris

The wrong is just as you said... lack of javascript. Most sites i visit daily uses javascript so the browser isnt usefull for me.

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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Home away from home
Joined:
2006/12/2 3:55
From Italy, Perugia
Posts: 2975
@Chris

Quote:
What's wrong with NetSurf? (except the lack of Javascript) Tell me and I might be able to fix or add it, at the very least it can be submitted as a feature request.


Hi Chris
There's nothing wrong with NetSurf, almost nothing wrong about your excellent port/implementation, surely one big problem is the lack of Javascript but not only Javascript, we miss frames, and many other functionality, i believe that HTML 4.01 support isn't finished yet, (altrought NetSurf team claim about HTML5 support via Hubbub)

We surely miss also some important CSS styles, some peges aren't renderend correctly, even without Javascript (just HTML+CSS pages)

So lack of Javascript, incomplete HTML 4.01 support and other minor and not minor things make NetSurf not totally usable for a serious user navigation.

So far, NetSurf as project is an incredible browser, today the web browser core are developed by millions dollars team, see WebKit (sponsored by Apple and developed in 15 years, Mozilla Foundations, Microsoft with IE ...)

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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Amigans Defender
Joined:
2006/11/17 22:40
From England
Posts: 3171
@samo79

Quote:
we miss frames,


NetSurf supports frames. Sure, they don't work optimumly, but are hardly "missing". Frames should be overhauled for the 3.0 release anyway.

Quote:
and many other functionality,


Care to elaborate?

Quote:
i believe that HTML 4.01 support isn't finished yet, (altrought NetSurf team claim about HTML5 support via Hubbub)


HTML5 parser isn't the same as supporting all the HTML5 spec. If you can't name which parts of HTML 4.01 aren't supported then I'm sure there are more important things to work on.

Quote:
some peges aren't renderend correctly, even without Javascript (just HTML+CSS pages)


Please raise any layout issues on the bugtracker (see my previous post above).

Chris

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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Home away from home
Joined:
2006/12/2 3:55
From Italy, Perugia
Posts: 2975
@Chris

Quote:
Care to elaborate?


Well mostly they are CSS issues, (i never talk about browser options) some elements are not drawed correctly, for example in this page the logo are not centered with the table above: http://www.qimmagine.it/owb/compatibility.html

Some site, expecially huge portals are a bit slow and again there are some part that there are not rendered as well...

For example: http://www.repubblica.it/

I can do some deep test, but it's a huge work to do alone as we need to test tons of pages with NetSurf and then with OWB to see the difference, for this i prefer to wait a little when NetSurf team keep the project ahead !

Quote:
HTML5 parser isn't the same as supporting all the HTML5 spec. If you can't name which parts of HTML 4.01 aren't supported then I'm sure there are more important things to work on.


See the above consideration ...

Quote:
Please raise any layout issues on the bugtracker (see my previous post above).


Ok, i will do when i can, meantime how about opening an Amiga specific tracker on: http://bugs.os4depot.net/

?

We have solved tons of bugs/problems/request thanks to this



Edited by samo79 on 2010/10/22 19:58:17
Edited by samo79 on 2010/10/22 19:58:49
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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Amigans Defender
Joined:
2006/11/17 22:40
From England
Posts: 3171
@samo79

Quote:

Well mostly they are CSS issues, (i never talk about browser options) some elements are not drawed correctly, for example in this page the logo are not centered with the table above: http://www.qimmagine.it/owb/compatibility.html


That's a layout issue, needs logging on the bugtracker.

Quote:

Some site, expecially huge portals are a bit slow and again there are some part that there are not rendered as well...

For example: http://www.repubblica.it/


That's fast enough under NetSurf GTK, although there is a layout issue on the links at the top of the page. I'll check it on OS4 when I'm back on the Amiga.

Quote:

I can do some deep test, but it's a huge work to do alone as we need to test tons of pages with NetSurf and then with OWB to see the difference, for this i prefer to wait a little when NetSurf team keep the project ahead !


Eh?

Quote:

Ok, i will do when i can, meantime how about opening an Amiga specific tracker on: http://bugs.os4depot.net/


Thanks. I'd rather re-open my own bugtracker for Amiga-specific issues as it allows me to keep track of bugs in other apps all in one place. At the moment I'm just about managing to keep track of everything without it (sans the bug database I lost when the hosting provider went tits-up), so I haven't bothered. I have other more pressing things to sort out.

Chris

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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Home away from home
Joined:
2006/12/2 3:55
From Italy, Perugia
Posts: 2975
@Chris

Quote:
I can do some deep test, but it's a huge work to do alone as we need to test tons of pages with NetSurf and then with OWB to see the difference, for this i prefer to wait a little when NetSurf team keep the project ahead !


Quote:
Eh?


I mean: Netsurf core isn't mature enough in comparison to the mainstrem engine (Gecko, WebKit, IE) so there can be many "incompatibility" with the pages, now for example i show you only my little site and a singular portal but how about millions of site out there ?

Obviusly NetSurf team doing an excellent job adding a good HTML/CSS-1/2 parser but also when complete it need a huge testing as any other core out there, Mozilla/WebKit is/was tested deeeply from years !!

I have a look at it aniway:

http://www.netsurf-browser.org/documentation/progress#CSSFeatures

Quote:
Thanks. I'd rather re-open my own bugtracker for Amiga-specific issues as it allows me to keep track of bugs in other apps all in one place. At the moment I'm just about managing to keep track of everything without it (sans the bug database I lost when the hosting provider went tits-up), so I haven't bothered. I have other more pressing things to sort out.


Keep you time mate, thanks

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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Amigans Defender
Joined:
2006/11/17 22:40
From England
Posts: 3171
@samo79

Quote:

I mean: Netsurf core isn't mature enough in comparison to the mainstrem engine (Gecko, WebKit, IE) so there can be many "incompatibility" with the pages, now for example i show you only my little site and a singular portal but how about millions of site out there ?

Obviusly NetSurf team doing an excellent job adding a good HTML/CSS-1/2 parser but also when complete it need a huge testing as any other core out there, Mozilla/WebKit is/was tested deeeply from years !!


If no problems get reported it doesn't improve. Nobody is expecting one person to check and compare every single page on the web, but any sites you do use that are obviously rendered wrong should be reported. One change to fix one site likely also fixes thousands of others.

Quote:

Quote:
Last updated 30 April 2009


Pre-dates the new CSS engine. I wouldn't take too much notice of that page, I can immediately see two other things which are obviously out-dated.

Chris

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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Home away from home
Joined:
2006/12/2 3:55
From Italy, Perugia
Posts: 2975
@Chris

Quote:
If no problems get reported it doesn't improve. Nobody is expecting one person to check and compare every single page on the web, but any sites you do use that are obviously rendered wrong should be reported. One change to fix one site likely also fixes thousands of others.


Ok, i only wanted to avoid opening tons of commits in bugtracker, (i thought too early at this stage) and i didn't want annoying for this reason, aniway ...

Quote:
Last updated 30 April 2009


Ops !

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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Amigans Defender
Joined:
2006/11/17 22:40
From England
Posts: 3171
@samo79

Quote:
Ok, i only wanted to avoid opening tons of commits in bugtracker, (i thought too early at this stage) and i didn't want annoying for this reason, aniway ...


What tends to happen is that somebody will look at the page, identify exactly what is causing the problem and then create a testcase.

The problem is then fixed. The testcase will be used in future to check for regressions. If you report it now, that testcase will be checked on future layout engines.

Quote:

It takes a long time to process, but rendering the page and scrolling seems OK to me (scrolling is a little jerky, which also shows to a lesser extent on my faster GTK machine)

If you think it is a problem, log it. It doesn't appear to be AmigaOS-specific unless you are seeing something different to me.

Chris

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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Home away from home
Joined:
2007/9/11 11:31
From Russia
Posts: 4193
@Chris

I just repost from AW net my post, where i post examples of 4 moderns sites over netsurf and owb to compare. Some of them for sure have bad rendering without refering to JS, but some of them have problems with JS exactly. So:

1. bbc.co.uk - netsurf , owb

Almost good, but top/right area are empty in netsurf (what point on a bit bad rendering of page).

2. nytimes.com - netsurf , owb

Netsurf not have whole area at bottom (pretty possible, that because of JavaScript lacking, or maybe bad rendering).

3. facebook.com - netsurf , owb

Netsurf show cleary problem with lacking of JavaScript here (but mobile version can be used, but imho all the buttons inside will not works, because they usually as on Youtube are JS (what not works over netsurf) ).

4. itv.com - netsurf , owb

There is for netsurf all is wrong. Dunno because of rendering or lacking of JS.

The conclusion : When Netsurf will have JS, then it can be compared. For now, its good browser with features, but not usable for everyday and modern needs. Sad news that netsurf deverls put JS realisation in faar way todo list, so, not sure if we will have in in next 1-2 years.

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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Amigans Defender
Joined:
2006/11/17 22:40
From England
Posts: 3171
@kas1e

1. Box layout issue. Doesn't show up here, but you get a different version of the page due to being outside the UK. That's something that needs logging on the bugtracker (probably with an attached full page save, as the devs are all in the UK)

2. Can't see what you are referring to on this one.

3. That's served up a different page due to no Javascript. Interesting that the "no Javascript" message is in English.

4. That has served up a completely different page, either due to no Javascript or (more likely given how different it is) browser detection. If OWB allows spoofing, try spoofing as Netsurf/3.0 and see what you get.

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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Home away from home
Joined:
2007/9/11 11:31
From Russia
Posts: 4193
@Chris

Quote:

2. Can't see what you are referring to on this one.

In owb there at very bottom you can see words : "welcome to TimesPeople", "the subway in pictures" and so on. On netsurf nothing. Imho JS stuff as well.

Quote:

4. That has served up a completely different page, either due to no Javascript or (more likely given how different it is) browser detection. If OWB allows spoofing, try spoofing as Netsurf/3.0 and see what you get.

Sorry, i do not know how to do spoof in owb, but anyway, netsurf by default should show it the same as owb imho. Can i spoof in netsurf ? And if yes, what i need to set, to make pages renders the same as in OWB ?

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Re: Sans-Labs closed ?
Amigans Defender
Joined:
2006/11/17 22:40
From England
Posts: 3171
@kas1e

Quote:

In owb there at very bottom you can see words : "welcome to TimesPeople", "the subway in pictures" and so on. On netsurf nothing. Imho JS stuff as well.


It's at the top, and yes - that's a Javascript banner (as is the missing Facebook one to the right). No great loss IMHO.

Quote:
Sorry, i do not know how to do spoof in owb, but anyway, netsurf by default should show it the same as owb imho.


It's hardly NetSurf's fault if the web page coding is looking at the browser string and deciding to hand out a different (quite possibly more suitable) page than it does to OWB.

Quote:
Can i spoof in netsurf ? And if yes, what i need to set, to make pages renders the same as in OWB ?


No, not without recompiling it.

Chris

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